“except for its outreach component”

Huh? But it is entirely its outreach component, so you seem to have invalidated your own sentence. Very odd.

Well, take care.

-cvj

Before we move on, presumably to avoid what you judge will be an unproductive discussion irrelevant to physics, consider the following question.

Which of the following candidates will experience the greater discrimination in a job interview
a) A fat, short, ugly, stupid, old, white man
OR
b) A slim, tall, handsome, intelligent, young, black man

Do you see my point? Do see that it’s completely reasonable to notice that racial discrimination, though it exists, is negligible in comparison to discrimination on other grounds such as age and weight.

That’s why, except for its outreach component, the NSBP might be as necessary as the National Society of Fat Physicists.

Take care,

-B

Best,

-cvj

“The problem is that that “horrible world” of significant racial discrimination no longer exists in the United States. Oh, there’s still racial discrimination, but it has diminished to the point where it’s now exceeded by the usual background discriminations against, for example, the fat, the short, the ugly, and the stupid.”

And there we fundamentally disagree. I wonder if you live in the USA at all, and if so, where. (Don’t disclose such personal info, of course.) I’m sorry to sound rude about this, but if you really believe this you’re basically living in a fantasy world.

Let’s agree to disagree and move on.

Best,

-cvj

In a horrible world for persons of colour seizing opportunities to go into certain careers that society has made it difficult to get into, this started out simply as a means to an end.

This makes perfect sense. The problem is that that “horrible world” of significant racial discrimination no longer exists in the United States. Oh, there’s still racial discrimination, but it has diminished to the point where it’s now exceeded by the usual background discriminations against, for example, the fat, the short, the ugly, and the stupid.

Given that racial discrimination isn’t a significant problem [I welcome examples refuting this], I just can’t warm to the idea of associating with particular persons primarily because we are of the same race. [For example, Clifford, I don't read your blog, because you are a black physicist.]

The only argument that makes sense to me is outreach intended to counter endemic subcultural influences that act to suppress the participation of black and hispanic youth in intellectual pursuits in general and physics in particular. In this I completely agree with you that it should be all about the youth. To the extend that it is, these organizations seem to me to be worthwhile.

Honestly, though, I’m pessimistic about the effectiveness of such outreach, because modest funding constrains its frequency to well be exceeded by that of daily pernicious influences within much of the black and hispanic communities.

You need to tell your students that.

I pretty much do. I encourage education in physics but seldom, if ever, careers in it.

Chanda,

Thanks for setting me straight on the membership requirements. By the way, my maternal grandmother was from Barbados, so I know that accent well!

The more the merrier!

“the parochialism of race-based organizations”

The point is that it need not be parochial. I would say that it currently is not. Maybe you should actually show up at one of these meetings and see where things have got to. Further, whether you like it or not, there’s been a significant number of young people who’ve been given a great boost to make a go at being scientists as a result of this. I’m willing to bet that some of them would not have done that without the help they got from this organization. In a horrible world for persons of colour seizing opportunities to go into certain careers that society has made it difficult to get into, this started out simply as a means to an end. It’s actually becoming a lot more than that now, it seems to me. Come and interact with the young people excited about physics and perhaps you’ll see.

“given that in comparison to other professions physics currently offers exceedingly limited opportunities for a comfortable living.”

Well, that’s not really correct. Or, I should say:

(1) If you’re training your students to be machines driven to make money with no interest in anything else, then sure, don’t send them to do physics. We don’t want people like that anyway.

(2) Compared to what? Last time I looked, there were hundreds of careers you could go into with a training in physics that seemed perfectly capable of allowing you to pay the bills.

The point is that physics trains you to think - extremely well. We are not trying to train everyone who does physics to become physics professors. That’s silly. We are training people to think analytically and oonfidently. It feeds into whatever walk of life you do. I can think of no better subject in which to train a young person in order to prepare them for a wide range of careers that needs such training.

You need to tell your students that.

Best,

-cvj

Thanks for taking the trouble to compose this extremely interesting post.

Unfortunately, I’m still stuck where you were in the mid 1990s. I can’t personally resolve the seeming conflict between the universality of physics and the parochialism of race-based organizations. So I stay away, and try to keep a low profile (even though I am eligible for membership in both organizations).

I am, moreover, uncomfortable with the idea of encouraging my students (racial minorities or not) to seek careers in physics, given that in comparison to other professions physics currently offers exceedingly limited opportunities for a comfortable living.