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	<title>Comments on: Tales From the Industry XVII: Jump Thoughts</title>
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	<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: nigel cook</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-110382</link>
		<dc:creator>nigel cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-110382</guid>
		<description>Hi Clifford,

Thanks for your reply.

"For every Feynman who can tell a fancy story about how he did not worry about it and came out on top (and gosh, how he loved his stories.... but don’t get me started), there are thousands of scientists who got absolutely nowhere by doing the same thing."

Could it be argued that if only one Feynman emerges by using intuition per many thousands who get nowhere using that route, surely the way to make progress fastest is to encourage &lt;i&gt;even more&lt;/i&gt; scientists to use an intuitive approach? Besides, surely everyone trusts their intuition to some extent when deciding which speculative area to work in?

Maybe people have to trust their own intuition when deciding whether to investigate string theory (which has not been proved finite beyond two loops), which is an example of an amazing intuitive idea that hasn't been proved to be self-consistent?

When students decide to work on string theory, they are doing so maybe for a lot of reasons, such as because it is fashionable, and because it interconnects so many different areas of frontier physics, even though it hasn't won Nobel Prizes yet for experimental confirmation.

So students just have to trust their physical intuition in deciding what to study when available theories haven't been proved self-consistent and can't be checked experimentally.

This brings to mind what Wigner said about the different emphasis in the physics culture he met in America from that in his home country, Hungary, (in his autobiography, &lt;i&gt;The Recollections of Eugene P. Wigner, as told to Andrew Szanton&lt;/i&gt;). Wigner said that in Hungary intuitive ideas are the most valued, but in America it is the long hard calculus of working out the consequences of ideas in detail is valued the most.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Clifford,</p>
<p>Thanks for your reply.</p>
<p>&#8220;For every Feynman who can tell a fancy story about how he did not worry about it and came out on top (and gosh, how he loved his stories&#8230;. but don’t get me started), there are thousands of scientists who got absolutely nowhere by doing the same thing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Could it be argued that if only one Feynman emerges by using intuition per many thousands who get nowhere using that route, surely the way to make progress fastest is to encourage <i>even more</i> scientists to use an intuitive approach? Besides, surely everyone trusts their intuition to some extent when deciding which speculative area to work in?</p>
<p>Maybe people have to trust their own intuition when deciding whether to investigate string theory (which has not been proved finite beyond two loops), which is an example of an amazing intuitive idea that hasn&#8217;t been proved to be self-consistent?</p>
<p>When students decide to work on string theory, they are doing so maybe for a lot of reasons, such as because it is fashionable, and because it interconnects so many different areas of frontier physics, even though it hasn&#8217;t won Nobel Prizes yet for experimental confirmation.</p>
<p>So students just have to trust their physical intuition in deciding what to study when available theories haven&#8217;t been proved self-consistent and can&#8217;t be checked experimentally.</p>
<p>This brings to mind what Wigner said about the different emphasis in the physics culture he met in America from that in his home country, Hungary, (in his autobiography, <i>The Recollections of Eugene P. Wigner, as told to Andrew Szanton</i>). Wigner said that in Hungary intuitive ideas are the most valued, but in America it is the long hard calculus of working out the consequences of ideas in detail is valued the most.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-110364</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-110364</guid>
		<description>Movies aside, internal consistency in physics (science in general) is an important idea not to be taken lightly. For every Feynman who can tell a fancy story about how he did not worry about it and came out on top (and gosh, how he loved his stories.... but don't get me started), there are thousands of scientists who got absolutely nowhere by doing the same thing.

Feynman was Feynman, with a stratospheric level of marvelous intuition that most of us do not possess... as such, he is not necessarily the best example for us to follow in all things.

Best,

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Movies aside, internal consistency in physics (science in general) is an important idea not to be taken lightly. For every Feynman who can tell a fancy story about how he did not worry about it and came out on top (and gosh, how he loved his stories&#8230;. but don&#8217;t get me started), there are thousands of scientists who got absolutely nowhere by doing the same thing.</p>
<p>Feynman was Feynman, with a stratospheric level of marvelous intuition that most of us do not possess&#8230; as such, he is not necessarily the best example for us to follow in all things.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: nige cook</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-110362</link>
		<dc:creator>nige cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 19:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-110362</guid>
		<description>Hi Clifford, 

Thanks for these further thoughts about being science advisor to for what is (at least partly) a sci fi film.  It's fascinating.

"What I like to see first and foremost in these things is not a strict adherence to all known scientific principles, but instead &lt;i&gt;internal consistency&lt;/i&gt;."

Please don't be too hard on them if there are apparent internal inconsistencies.  Such alleged internal inconsistencies don't always matter, as Feynman discovered:

“... take the exclusion principle ... it turns out that you don’t have to pay much attention to that in the intermediate states in the perturbation theory. I had discovered from empirical rules that if you don’t pay attention to it, you get the right answers anyway .... Teller said: “... It is fundamentally wrong that you don’t have to take the exclusion principle into account.” ... 

“... Dirac asked “Is it unitary?” ... Dirac had proved ... that in quantum mechanics, since you progress only forward in time, you have to have a unitary operator. But there is no unitary way of dealing with a single electron. Dirac could not think of going forwards and backwards ... in time ...

” ... Bohr ... said: “... one could not talk about the trajectory of an electron in the atom, because it was something not observable.” ... Bohr thought that I didn’t know the uncertainty principle ..." - Feynman, quoted at http://www.tony5m17h.net/goodnewsbadnews.html#badnews

I agree with you that: "Entertainment leading to curiosity, real questions, and then a bit of education ..."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Clifford, </p>
<p>Thanks for these further thoughts about being science advisor to for what is (at least partly) a sci fi film.  It&#8217;s fascinating.</p>
<p>&#8220;What I like to see first and foremost in these things is not a strict adherence to all known scientific principles, but instead <i>internal consistency</i>.&#8221;</p>
<p>Please don&#8217;t be too hard on them if there are apparent internal inconsistencies.  Such alleged internal inconsistencies don&#8217;t always matter, as Feynman discovered:</p>
<p>“&#8230; take the exclusion principle &#8230; it turns out that you don’t have to pay much attention to that in the intermediate states in the perturbation theory. I had discovered from empirical rules that if you don’t pay attention to it, you get the right answers anyway &#8230;. Teller said: “&#8230; It is fundamentally wrong that you don’t have to take the exclusion principle into account.” &#8230; </p>
<p>“&#8230; Dirac asked “Is it unitary?” &#8230; Dirac had proved &#8230; that in quantum mechanics, since you progress only forward in time, you have to have a unitary operator. But there is no unitary way of dealing with a single electron. Dirac could not think of going forwards and backwards &#8230; in time &#8230;</p>
<p>” &#8230; Bohr &#8230; said: “&#8230; one could not talk about the trajectory of an electron in the atom, because it was something not observable.” &#8230; Bohr thought that I didn’t know the uncertainty principle &#8230;&#8221; - Feynman, quoted at <a href="http://www.tony5m17h.net/goodnewsbadnews.html#badnews" rel="nofollow">http://www.tony5m17h.net/goodnewsbadnews.html#badnews</a></p>
<p>I agree with you that: &#8220;Entertainment leading to curiosity, real questions, and then a bit of education &#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: patrick</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-110003</link>
		<dc:creator>patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-110003</guid>
		<description>The filming style of Jumper made me feel like i myself was jumping around, which was cool. Also Christensen’s lines were as short as possible, which was ideal for the movie’s overall quality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The filming style of Jumper made me feel like i myself was jumping around, which was cool. Also Christensen’s lines were as short as possible, which was ideal for the movie’s overall quality.</p>
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		<title>By: Jude</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-109925</link>
		<dc:creator>Jude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 06:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/02/17/tales-from-the-industry-xvii-jump-thoughts/#comment-109925</guid>
		<description>I saw Jumper today with my sons, and found it to be quick and fun.  It was even more effective than The Amazing Race at making this agoraphobe want to travel.  There were a few plot inconsistencies (why would he even have a passport? He'd need one to board the plane with Millie, but it takes months to get one when you've never needed one before).  Thanks for writing about the physics.  I'm sure we'll end up purchasing the DVD, so I'm tagging this post on delicious so I can re-read the physics part after I've seen it a few more times.  Now I'm off to read the book.  Oh, and my favorite part?  When he's in danger, he ends up at the library.  That's where I would head if I were in danger.  What happens there has inspired me to work on my library's disaster plan (we're in a flood zone).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw Jumper today with my sons, and found it to be quick and fun.  It was even more effective than The Amazing Race at making this agoraphobe want to travel.  There were a few plot inconsistencies (why would he even have a passport? He&#8217;d need one to board the plane with Millie, but it takes months to get one when you&#8217;ve never needed one before).  Thanks for writing about the physics.  I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;ll end up purchasing the DVD, so I&#8217;m tagging this post on delicious so I can re-read the physics part after I&#8217;ve seen it a few more times.  Now I&#8217;m off to read the book.  Oh, and my favorite part?  When he&#8217;s in danger, he ends up at the library.  That&#8217;s where I would head if I were in danger.  What happens there has inspired me to work on my library&#8217;s disaster plan (we&#8217;re in a flood zone).</p>
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