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	<title>Comments on: Crook on Roof</title>
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	<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-126147</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 19:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-126147</guid>
		<description>"Work creates Work."

No it doesn't. (He says, looking up from the lecture about work and energy he just happens to be writing to give later today...)

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Work creates Work.&#8221;</p>
<p>No it doesn&#8217;t. (He says, looking up from the lecture about work and energy he just happens to be writing to give later today&#8230;)</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Jud Wright</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-126146</link>
		<dc:creator>Jud Wright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-126146</guid>
		<description>Turbine vents are dynamic in nature and work much better than static vents. Movement creates movement. Work creates Work. Similar to a pump.

As far as the squeaks go. They make them now with sealed bearings.
Check out the SupaVent. It is the best made. And I'm not just saying so because I sell them.

&lt;em&gt;[advertising snipped out by cvj]&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turbine vents are dynamic in nature and work much better than static vents. Movement creates movement. Work creates Work. Similar to a pump.</p>
<p>As far as the squeaks go. They make them now with sealed bearings.<br />
Check out the SupaVent. It is the best made. And I&#8217;m not just saying so because I sell them.</p>
<p><em>[advertising snipped out by cvj]</em></p>
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		<title>By: Pro</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-126024</link>
		<dc:creator>Pro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-126024</guid>
		<description>Guys I have exactly the same thing on my roof, on top of the chimney.

It squeals like helll!
I have used WD-40 on it in the past and it worked for a few months but now here we go again.

I'm gonna look for that graphite lubricate thingy...
I'm wondering if w15 car oil will work as I have some to spare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys I have exactly the same thing on my roof, on top of the chimney.</p>
<p>It squeals like helll!<br />
I have used WD-40 on it in the past and it worked for a few months but now here we go again.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m gonna look for that graphite lubricate thingy&#8230;<br />
I&#8217;m wondering if w15 car oil will work as I have some to spare.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-119803</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-119803</guid>
		<description>Carl, just saw your remark... No no, &lt;em&gt;no&lt;/em&gt;.  You missed my point. I'm not asking for  the basic principles of how an external breeze can turn a differentially oriented mechanism and make it spin. That's more than a bit trivial. I'm talking about the belief that in still air having this is any better than not having it, for venting. I think it is not true. If you have an external driver, such as a breeze, then it can act through this device to help venting, yes. With no breeze, it's just an elaborate hunk of metal. The roof cannot vent itself faster through a clever twisty bit of metal. There is no free lunch.

Best,

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carl, just saw your remark&#8230; No no, <em>no</em>.  You missed my point. I&#8217;m not asking for  the basic principles of how an external breeze can turn a differentially oriented mechanism and make it spin. That&#8217;s more than a bit trivial. I&#8217;m talking about the belief that in still air having this is any better than not having it, for venting. I think it is not true. If you have an external driver, such as a breeze, then it can act through this device to help venting, yes. With no breeze, it&#8217;s just an elaborate hunk of metal. The roof cannot vent itself faster through a clever twisty bit of metal. There is no free lunch.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Brannen</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-114603</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Brannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-114603</guid>
		<description>Clifford, it doesn't have anything directly to do with how a wind turbine sucks air out of your house, but you might find &lt;a href="http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1742-6596/75/1/012004" rel="nofollow"&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt; on the physics of the Magnus effect and wind mills of interest.

Re "Where’s the flaw in my reasoning?". The wind makes the turbine turn because the turbine is not balanced. That is, one side catches the air, the other does not. So it is caused to rotate. To see this, consider what happens if you don't let the unit rotate. Looking at it, you can see that the wind will catch it on the left more than on the right (small rotations cause a larger change in volume contained on the right than on the left), and so it will spin with the left side going away from you. (I.e. clockwise as seen from above.)

Upon rotation, the turbine effect causes air to be sucked out of your attic. This effect shouldn't need explaining in that it is clear that if, in the absence of wind, you spun the turbine it would act as a centrifugal turbine and would expel air.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford, it doesn&#8217;t have anything directly to do with how a wind turbine sucks air out of your house, but you might find <a href="http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/1742-6596/75/1/012004" rel="nofollow">this article</a> on the physics of the Magnus effect and wind mills of interest.</p>
<p>Re &#8220;Where’s the flaw in my reasoning?&#8221;. The wind makes the turbine turn because the turbine is not balanced. That is, one side catches the air, the other does not. So it is caused to rotate. To see this, consider what happens if you don&#8217;t let the unit rotate. Looking at it, you can see that the wind will catch it on the left more than on the right (small rotations cause a larger change in volume contained on the right than on the left), and so it will spin with the left side going away from you. (I.e. clockwise as seen from above.)</p>
<p>Upon rotation, the turbine effect causes air to be sucked out of your attic. This effect shouldn&#8217;t need explaining in that it is clear that if, in the absence of wind, you spun the turbine it would act as a centrifugal turbine and would expel air.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105935</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105935</guid>
		<description>I think the turbine is just there for added efficiency in the presence of an external breeze; in still air any spinning it does because of a chimney effect will not make it vent more effectively, but it might help to keep out rain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the turbine is just there for added efficiency in the presence of an external breeze; in still air any spinning it does because of a chimney effect will not make it vent more effectively, but it might help to keep out rain.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105932</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:15:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105932</guid>
		<description>If there's wind blowing, then of course the situation is different. Then there is an external energy source. But if still, then I suggest that  it can't make a difference.

Then the problem with it only working in this enhanced mode when there's a wind  is that it is precisely when there is little or no wind that you need the greatest effect. But perhaps a little goes a long way, which would be nice. Less energy use on cooling the house in the Summer.

Cheers,

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there&#8217;s wind blowing, then of course the situation is different. Then there is an external energy source. But if still, then I suggest that  it can&#8217;t make a difference.</p>
<p>Then the problem with it only working in this enhanced mode when there&#8217;s a wind  is that it is precisely when there is little or no wind that you need the greatest effect. But perhaps a little goes a long way, which would be nice. Less energy use on cooling the house in the Summer.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105930</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105930</guid>
		<description>It may well be true, but I'd very much like to hear how the spinning will help, all other things being equal. The "chimney effect" is fine, and I'm happy with that on any chimney-like arrangement... What I am stuck on is that I just don't get how I'm to get more throughput by using the very air I'm trying to move to turn a turbine. The energy it could have used to get away is now being used to move a turbine. Seems to me that I'll just break even. Where's the flaw in my reasoning?

Cheers,


-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may well be true, but I&#8217;d very much like to hear how the spinning will help, all other things being equal. The &#8220;chimney effect&#8221; is fine, and I&#8217;m happy with that on any chimney-like arrangement&#8230; What I am stuck on is that I just don&#8217;t get how I&#8217;m to get more throughput by using the very air I&#8217;m trying to move to turn a turbine. The energy it could have used to get away is now being used to move a turbine. Seems to me that I&#8217;ll just break even. Where&#8217;s the flaw in my reasoning?</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Carl Brannen</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105928</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Brannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 01:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105928</guid>
		<description>These things pull air from your attic using a turbine effect. If there's no wind, they will allow ventilation to occur due to air temperature differences and the chimney effect (which will be improved if you paint them flat black so that they get hot faster), but with a little wind, they can move the air much quicker than it would otherwise move out of your attic.

Here's a test. Wait until it's a 5 to 10mph day. Crawl into your attic. Measure the air speed up the vent by using a piece of tissue paper to see how fast the air moves. Now jam a stick in your air turbine and repeat.

I bet that you will find that the thing does assist in ventilation.

As far as stopping one from squeaking, clearly if it stops squeaking when you oil it you have found the problem, the issue is that the oil doesn't last. To make the oil last longer, either use a thicker oil (like one that's designed for this use), or better, go with a non oily graphite lubrication that won't attract dust or dry out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These things pull air from your attic using a turbine effect. If there&#8217;s no wind, they will allow ventilation to occur due to air temperature differences and the chimney effect (which will be improved if you paint them flat black so that they get hot faster), but with a little wind, they can move the air much quicker than it would otherwise move out of your attic.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a test. Wait until it&#8217;s a 5 to 10mph day. Crawl into your attic. Measure the air speed up the vent by using a piece of tissue paper to see how fast the air moves. Now jam a stick in your air turbine and repeat.</p>
<p>I bet that you will find that the thing does assist in ventilation.</p>
<p>As far as stopping one from squeaking, clearly if it stops squeaking when you oil it you have found the problem, the issue is that the oil doesn&#8217;t last. To make the oil last longer, either use a thicker oil (like one that&#8217;s designed for this use), or better, go with a non oily graphite lubrication that won&#8217;t attract dust or dry out.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105862</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:30:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105862</guid>
		<description>The neck on the vent reminded me of the arm and leg joints of the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_diving_suit" rel="nofollow"&gt;Atmospheric Diving Suit&lt;/a&gt;. 

My mother has some of these vents on the roof of her home and they can really squeal on a windy day. We've tried lubricating them, but it doesn't seem to last. I should mention that they are at least fifteen years old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The neck on the vent reminded me of the arm and leg joints of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_diving_suit" rel="nofollow">Atmospheric Diving Suit</a>. </p>
<p>My mother has some of these vents on the roof of her home and they can really squeal on a windy day. We&#8217;ve tried lubricating them, but it doesn&#8217;t seem to last. I should mention that they are at least fifteen years old.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105826</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 19:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105826</guid>
		<description>No no no... you're missing the point, I think. No matter what processes give rise to air flow that makes is spin, the spinning has nothing to do with improving that airflow, or making it more likely, I think.

Let me put it another way. It would be like claiming that if I start with two light aircraft sitting on the runway, one with  propellers and one without (but otherwise identical), the one with propellers is better able to spontaneously start barreling down the runway and take off. I find that hard to believe. It takes work to turn the blades.

Cheers,


-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No no no&#8230; you&#8217;re missing the point, I think. No matter what processes give rise to air flow that makes is spin, the spinning has nothing to do with improving that airflow, or making it more likely, I think.</p>
<p>Let me put it another way. It would be like claiming that if I start with two light aircraft sitting on the runway, one with  propellers and one without (but otherwise identical), the one with propellers is better able to spontaneously start barreling down the runway and take off. I find that hard to believe. It takes work to turn the blades.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: spyder</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105822</link>
		<dc:creator>spyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105822</guid>
		<description>Damn physics gets in the way of advertising, who woulda thunk it?   However, one could also surmise that the there are any number of micro weather systems that can develop around this.  The outside surface of the roof would heat up creating some air currents, particularly along the contour lines of your shaped roof.  Likewise temperature differences around your property, your neighbors, and so forth, may stimulate air movement that could induce spin in the vent.  The only restricting factor that you haven't mentioned is the sophistication (or particularly the lack thereof) of the ball-bearings in the vent housing.  Less friction would encourage spin with less air flow across the blades, i would think???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn physics gets in the way of advertising, who woulda thunk it?   However, one could also surmise that the there are any number of micro weather systems that can develop around this.  The outside surface of the roof would heat up creating some air currents, particularly along the contour lines of your shaped roof.  Likewise temperature differences around your property, your neighbors, and so forth, may stimulate air movement that could induce spin in the vent.  The only restricting factor that you haven&#8217;t mentioned is the sophistication (or particularly the lack thereof) of the ball-bearings in the vent housing.  Less friction would encourage spin with less air flow across the blades, i would think???</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105818</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105818</guid>
		<description>Yes, that's my point, Jonathan. The publicity for the thing on the box and so forth makes a big deal of the spinning as being the important feature, and I'm simply not convinced.



-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that&#8217;s my point, Jonathan. The publicity for the thing on the box and so forth makes a big deal of the spinning as being the important feature, and I&#8217;m simply not convinced.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Lubin</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105810</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Lubin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105810</guid>
		<description>Shouldn&#8217;t it work by chimney effect? The warm air in the attic should want to rise out of the hole, and the draw of the chimney, it seems to me, should be proportional to its height (and to the temperature difference between inside and outside). The cap&#8217;s rate of spinning could be augmented by whatever upflow there is. Without knowing the internal design of the cap, though, I can&#8217;t guess why the spinning would help. I think it&#8217;s for cosmetic purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shouldn&rsquo;t it work by chimney effect? The warm air in the attic should want to rise out of the hole, and the draw of the chimney, it seems to me, should be proportional to its height (and to the temperature difference between inside and outside). The cap&rsquo;s rate of spinning could be augmented by whatever upflow there is. Without knowing the internal design of the cap, though, I can&rsquo;t guess why the spinning would help. I think it&rsquo;s for cosmetic purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Jude</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105766</link>
		<dc:creator>Jude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105766</guid>
		<description>I have two of these vents.  It seems that there is nearly always a breeze in my town in Coloado.  They make a huge difference in my attic, but then again, since I live in a hodgepodge of a house designed and built by my ancestors, not always to code, they're the only venting I have.  When you said "crook on a roof" for some reason, I thought of me, since I'm a Crook.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have two of these vents.  It seems that there is nearly always a breeze in my town in Coloado.  They make a huge difference in my attic, but then again, since I live in a hodgepodge of a house designed and built by my ancestors, not always to code, they&#8217;re the only venting I have.  When you said &#8220;crook on a roof&#8221; for some reason, I thought of me, since I&#8217;m a Crook.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Tunnell</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105765</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Tunnell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 14:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2008/01/21/crook-on-roof/#comment-105765</guid>
		<description>Guess: if it spins, it's hard for animals to get in or for it to get clogged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guess: if it spins, it&#8217;s hard for animals to get in or for it to get clogged.</p>
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