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	<title>Comments on: Magnetic Vision?</title>
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	<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: My Telegraph : abelian : October 2007</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-83100</link>
		<dc:creator>My Telegraph : abelian : October 2007</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2007 22:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-83100</guid>
		<description>[...] I had a discussion with a blogger once on efficacy of magnetic energy bracelets on the human body and I remember I was very skeptical about it. New results on how birds interact with the magnetic field have left me astounded and more curious about the interraction of the magnetic field with biology.Â  It is being reported that the magnetic fieldÂ  interacts with the bird's visual system which means the birds "see" the earth magnetic's field. It should be interesting to find out what the bird sees. Have a listen to Professor Henrik MouritsenÂ  interview.An AlbatrossÂ Another group reports finding magnetite particles in human brain tissues, magnetite is a form of Iron Oxide and as the name suggests is magnetic. This means it is worth investigating how the human brain interacts with the magnetic field. I will find out more about this topic and inform the blog readers about this very fascinating topic. A more scientific discussion on this topic can be found at AsymptotiaÂ Â  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I had a discussion with a blogger once on efficacy of magnetic energy bracelets on the human body and I remember I was very skeptical about it. New results on how birds interact with the magnetic field have left me astounded and more curious about the interraction of the magnetic field with biology.Â  It is being reported that the magnetic fieldÂ  interacts with the bird&#8217;s visual system which means the birds &#8220;see&#8221; the earth magnetic&#8217;s field. It should be interesting to find out what the bird sees. Have a listen to Professor Henrik MouritsenÂ  interview.An AlbatrossÂ Another group reports finding magnetite particles in human brain tissues, magnetite is a form of Iron Oxide and as the name suggests is magnetic. This means it is worth investigating how the human brain interacts with the magnetic field. I will find out more about this topic and inform the blog readers about this very fascinating topic. A more scientific discussion on this topic can be found at AsymptotiaÂ Â  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: pedant</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82500</link>
		<dc:creator>pedant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82500</guid>
		<description>As ever, you are at the leading edge with the amazing bio-facts. That birds can, perhaps, visually encode a magnetic field, sensed via fragments of the lode-stone of the ancients (though the fact that pigeons had chunks of the stuff in their heads is something I have come across before) is astonishing, and at the same time, getting frighteningly close to Brian Cox (physicist rather than actor with an amazing voice)'s scientific background to Heroes, which is currently being screened in the UK.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As ever, you are at the leading edge with the amazing bio-facts. That birds can, perhaps, visually encode a magnetic field, sensed via fragments of the lode-stone of the ancients (though the fact that pigeons had chunks of the stuff in their heads is something I have come across before) is astonishing, and at the same time, getting frighteningly close to Brian Cox (physicist rather than actor with an amazing voice)&#8217;s scientific background to Heroes, which is currently being screened in the UK.</p>
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		<title>By: Bee</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82429</link>
		<dc:creator>Bee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82429</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href="http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_5.html#sheldrake" rel="nofollow"&gt;A Dangerous Idea?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.edge.org/q2006/q06_5.html#sheldrake" rel="nofollow">A Dangerous Idea?</a></p>
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		<title>By: stefan</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82383</link>
		<dc:creator>stefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82383</guid>
		<description>Hi Clifford,


thank you for the pointer. That's a fascinating topic indeed! By the way, from reports here in Germany (and at &lt;a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070924/full/070924-5.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;news@nature&lt;/a&gt; I've learned that the orignal paper is open-access at PLoS One (DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0000937, direct link &lt;a href="http://www.plosone.org/doi/pone.0000937" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.).

I don't know more about this specific results on "magnetic vision" than from the news reports, but the work of the Oldenburg group goes back to research of biologists at "my" University in Frankfurt am Main. 

And a different ascpect of these investigations on magnetoreception in migrating brids that is boosting these days is the investigation of this sense in pigeons. Pigeons have in their beak ferromagnetic crystallites of the iron oxides magnetite and maghemite, and this is thought to be important for their reception of magnetic fields, which could help to explain their navigational skills - see e.g. "Homing pigeons can use magnetic cues for locating food." by Peter Thalau, Elke Holtkamp-RÃ¶tzler, Gerta Fleissner and Wolfgang Wiltschko (Naturwissenschaften &lt;b&gt;94&lt;/b&gt; (2007) 813; DOI: &lt;a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00114-007-0259-6" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;10.1007/s00114-007-0259-6&lt;/a&gt;) and "A novel concept of Fe-mineral-based magnetoreception: histological and physicochemical data from the upper beak of homing pigeons." by Gerta Fleissner, Branko Stahl, Peter Thalau, Gerald Falkenberg and GÃ¼nther Fleissner (Naturwissenschaften &lt;b&gt;94&lt;/b&gt; (2007) 631; DOI: &lt;a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00114-007-0236-0" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;10.1007/s00114-007-0236-0&lt;/a&gt;). 

The physical mechanism that may be at work in the pigeons' beaks is investigated by physicists at the &lt;a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/07/fias-frankfurt-institute-for-advanced.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;FIAS&lt;/a&gt; - including my senior advisor! Two recent papers by them are "Theoretical Analysis of an Iron Mineral-Based Magnetoreceptor Model in Birds" (Ilia A. Solov'yov and Walter Greiner, Biophysical Journal &lt;b&gt;93&lt;/b&gt; (2007) 1493; DOI: &lt;a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1529/biophysj.107.105098" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;10.1529/biophysj.107.105098&lt;/a&gt;) and and the arxiv "Towards understanding of birds magnetoreceptor mechanism" (&lt;a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.1763" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;arXiv:0704.1763v1&lt;/a&gt;).

All this is really fascinating!

Best regards, Stefan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Clifford,</p>
<p>thank you for the pointer. That&#8217;s a fascinating topic indeed! By the way, from reports here in Germany (and at <a href="http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070924/full/070924-5.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">news@nature</a> I&#8217;ve learned that the orignal paper is open-access at PLoS One (DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0000937, direct link <a href="http://www.plosone.org/doi/pone.0000937" rel="nofollow">here</a>.).</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know more about this specific results on &#8220;magnetic vision&#8221; than from the news reports, but the work of the Oldenburg group goes back to research of biologists at &#8220;my&#8221; University in Frankfurt am Main. </p>
<p>And a different ascpect of these investigations on magnetoreception in migrating brids that is boosting these days is the investigation of this sense in pigeons. Pigeons have in their beak ferromagnetic crystallites of the iron oxides magnetite and maghemite, and this is thought to be important for their reception of magnetic fields, which could help to explain their navigational skills - see e.g. &#8220;Homing pigeons can use magnetic cues for locating food.&#8221; by Peter Thalau, Elke Holtkamp-RÃ¶tzler, Gerta Fleissner and Wolfgang Wiltschko (Naturwissenschaften <b>94</b> (2007) 813; DOI: <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00114-007-0259-6" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">10.1007/s00114-007-0259-6</a>) and &#8220;A novel concept of Fe-mineral-based magnetoreception: histological and physicochemical data from the upper beak of homing pigeons.&#8221; by Gerta Fleissner, Branko Stahl, Peter Thalau, Gerald Falkenberg and GÃ¼nther Fleissner (Naturwissenschaften <b>94</b> (2007) 631; DOI: <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s00114-007-0236-0" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">10.1007/s00114-007-0236-0</a>). </p>
<p>The physical mechanism that may be at work in the pigeons&#8217; beaks is investigated by physicists at the <a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/07/fias-frankfurt-institute-for-advanced.html" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">FIAS</a> - including my senior advisor! Two recent papers by them are &#8220;Theoretical Analysis of an Iron Mineral-Based Magnetoreceptor Model in Birds&#8221; (Ilia A. Solov&#8217;yov and Walter Greiner, Biophysical Journal <b>93</b> (2007) 1493; DOI: <a href="http://dx.doi.org/10.1529/biophysj.107.105098" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">10.1529/biophysj.107.105098</a>) and and the arxiv &#8220;Towards understanding of birds magnetoreceptor mechanism&#8221; (<a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.1763" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">arXiv:0704.1763v1</a>).</p>
<p>All this is really fascinating!</p>
<p>Best regards, Stefan</p>
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		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82362</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:32:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82362</guid>
		<description>It's hard to weave a &lt;a href="http://eskesthai.blogspot.com/2007/09/history-of-magnetic-vision.htm" title="The History of Magnetic Vision" rel="nofollow"&gt;comprehensive view&lt;/a&gt; about "magnetic vision" in such a "small post box." So it may seem "irrelevant" but it's not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s hard to weave a <a href="http://eskesthai.blogspot.com/2007/09/history-of-magnetic-vision.htm" title="The History of Magnetic Vision" rel="nofollow">comprehensive view</a> about &#8220;magnetic vision&#8221; in such a &#8220;small post box.&#8221; So it may seem &#8220;irrelevant&#8221; but it&#8217;s not.</p>
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		<title>By: TorbjÃ¶rn Larsson, OM</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82103</link>
		<dc:creator>TorbjÃ¶rn Larsson, OM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82103</guid>
		<description>Sight (and smell et cetera) receptors are quite versatile, and it makes sense that animals evolved to tie in sensory information that way. It is quite easy, IIRC recently they transfered a gene for a new type of rhodopsin to mice and they adopted the new part of the color spectra. 

Some species have 4 or more types of photo receptors. (Also, there are women who can have 4 due to a mutation on an X-chromosome.) This adds resolution and seeing into the UV spectra. White flowers have different colors for pollinating insects. 

Likewise insects may see polarized light, an additional experience of information that may resemble the overlay from magnetic receptors. As &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidinger%27s_brush" rel="nofollow"&gt;many people have an accidental ability to perceive it too&lt;/a&gt;, we can get a sense for how it feels without having to use computer overlays.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sight (and smell et cetera) receptors are quite versatile, and it makes sense that animals evolved to tie in sensory information that way. It is quite easy, IIRC recently they transfered a gene for a new type of rhodopsin to mice and they adopted the new part of the color spectra. </p>
<p>Some species have 4 or more types of photo receptors. (Also, there are women who can have 4 due to a mutation on an X-chromosome.) This adds resolution and seeing into the UV spectra. White flowers have different colors for pollinating insects. </p>
<p>Likewise insects may see polarized light, an additional experience of information that may resemble the overlay from magnetic receptors. As <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haidinger%27s_brush" rel="nofollow">many people have an accidental ability to perceive it too</a>, we can get a sense for how it feels without having to use computer overlays.</p>
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		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82047</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-82047</guid>
		<description>That's interesting information Tony.

Rupert Sheldrake has had similar thoughts on this topic.

&lt;a href="http://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/pigeons/" title="Homing Pigeons-Rupert Sheldrake" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;"Numerous experiments on homing have already been carried out with pigeons. Nevertheless, after nearly a century of dedicated but frustrating research, no one knows how pigeons home, and all attempts to explain their navigational ability in terms of known senses and physical forces have so far proved unsuccessful. Researchers in this field readily admit the problem. 'The amazing flexibility of homing and migrating birds has been a puzzle for years. Remove cue after cue, and yet animals still retain some backup strategy for establishing flight direction.' 'The problem of navigation remains essentially unsolved.'&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

 Many of academics might have steered clear because of the the thoughts and subject he has about this? It seems to me that if this information is credible then some of Rupert's work has some substance to it and hence, brings some credibility to the academic outlook.

&lt;em&gt;

[...snip...longer remarks cut out... sorry...too long for so far off-topic. -cvj....]&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s interesting information Tony.</p>
<p>Rupert Sheldrake has had similar thoughts on this topic.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.sheldrake.org/experiments/pigeons/" title="Homing Pigeons-Rupert Sheldrake" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow"><br />
<blockquote>&#8220;Numerous experiments on homing have already been carried out with pigeons. Nevertheless, after nearly a century of dedicated but frustrating research, no one knows how pigeons home, and all attempts to explain their navigational ability in terms of known senses and physical forces have so far proved unsuccessful. Researchers in this field readily admit the problem. &#8216;The amazing flexibility of homing and migrating birds has been a puzzle for years. Remove cue after cue, and yet animals still retain some backup strategy for establishing flight direction.&#8217; &#8216;The problem of navigation remains essentially unsolved.&#8217;</p></blockquote>
<p></a></p>
<p> Many of academics might have steered clear because of the the thoughts and subject he has about this? It seems to me that if this information is credible then some of Rupert&#8217;s work has some substance to it and hence, brings some credibility to the academic outlook.</p>
<p><em></p>
<p>[...snip...longer remarks cut out... sorry...too long for so far off-topic. -cvj....]</em></p>
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		<title>By: Kramer</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-81991</link>
		<dc:creator>Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-81991</guid>
		<description>Thorsten Ritz (physics prof at UC Irvine) has done a lot of interesting work along these lines.  Perhaps you can entice him up for a talk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thorsten Ritz (physics prof at UC Irvine) has done a lot of interesting work along these lines.  Perhaps you can entice him up for a talk.</p>
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		<title>By: Few more links! &#171; Entertaining Research</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-81919</link>
		<dc:creator>Few more links! &#171; Entertaining Research</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 03:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-81919</guid>
		<description>[...] Do birds &#8220;see&#8221; magnetic fields? Clifford at Asymptotia points to some online resources (and, is on the lookout for more info); [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Do birds &#8220;see&#8221; magnetic fields? Clifford at Asymptotia points to some online resources (and, is on the lookout for more info); [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Smith</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-81886</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 01:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-81886</guid>
		<description>A few references that I hope might be relevant: 

According to an article by Charles Walcott, et al; "Pigeons Have Magnets," Science, 205:1027, 1979, "... Homing pigeons seem to possess at least two direction sensors. Years of experiments with released birds have proved that they use sun compasses on sunny days but have magnetic backups for cloudy days. But how do they sense the earth's magnetic field? Paired-coil tests suggested that the pigeon compass resided in the neck or back of the head. Narrowing the search with sensitive magnetometers and two dozen dissected pigeons, the authors discovered tiny bits of tissue containing magnetite crystals. The same tissues contained yellow crystals likely made by the iron-storage protein ferritin, which was probably used in the biological synthesis of the magnetite. ...".  

In Science Frontiers #9, Winter 1979, William R. Corliss added the comment: "Many species of mud bacteria also synthesize magnetite for purposes of orientation, indicating that nature or some directive force used the same strategy in two widely separated species."

Jon Dobson and Tim St. Pierre at the University of Western Australia have a web page at www.biophysics.uwa.edu.au/magnetite.html that says: "... Biomineralization of ferrimagnetic magnetite is known to occur in a number of organisms including animals ... Recent investigations have revealed the presence of biogenic magnetite in human brain tissue as well ... we are examining tissue samples using scanning and transmission electron microscopy (SEM and TEM), electron energy loss spectroscopy (EELS) and energy filter TEM (EFTEM) imaging in order to locate the particles in the tissue and determine their relationships to structures in the brain. The presence of ferrimagnetic material in human brain tissue also provides plausible theoretical mechanisms for the interaction of environmental magnetic fields with the human central nervous system ...".

Kobayashi, Kirschvink, and Nesson, in Nature v.374, p.123, 9 March 1995, say "... A simple calculation shows that the mechanical energy present in a single 0.1 um magnetite crystal exposed to a 60 Hz, 0.1 mT magnetic field is many times the thermal background noise. Such particles, if adsorbed on cell surfaces or ingested by the cells, could conceivably transfer this energy to contiguous cell structures such as mechanically-activated ion channels (which operate with a gating force close to the thermal noise limit), and thereby alter cytoplasmic ion concentrations ...".

Tony Smith</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few references that I hope might be relevant: </p>
<p>According to an article by Charles Walcott, et al; &#8220;Pigeons Have Magnets,&#8221; Science, 205:1027, 1979, &#8220;&#8230; Homing pigeons seem to possess at least two direction sensors. Years of experiments with released birds have proved that they use sun compasses on sunny days but have magnetic backups for cloudy days. But how do they sense the earth&#8217;s magnetic field? Paired-coil tests suggested that the pigeon compass resided in the neck or back of the head. Narrowing the search with sensitive magnetometers and two dozen dissected pigeons, the authors discovered tiny bits of tissue containing magnetite crystals. The same tissues contained yellow crystals likely made by the iron-storage protein ferritin, which was probably used in the biological synthesis of the magnetite. &#8230;&#8221;.  </p>
<p>In Science Frontiers #9, Winter 1979, William R. Corliss added the comment: &#8220;Many species of mud bacteria also synthesize magnetite for purposes of orientation, indicating that nature or some directive force used the same strategy in two widely separated species.&#8221;</p>
<p>Jon Dobson and Tim St. Pierre at the University of Western Australia have a web page at <a href="http://www.biophysics.uwa.edu.au/magnetite.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.biophysics.uwa.edu.au/magnetite.html</a> that says: &#8220;&#8230; Biomineralization of ferrimagnetic magnetite is known to occur in a number of organisms including animals &#8230; Recent investigations have revealed the presence of biogenic magnetite in human brain tissue as well &#8230; we are examining tissue samples using scanning and transmission electron microscopy (SEM and TEM), electron energy loss spectroscopy (EELS) and energy filter TEM (EFTEM) imaging in order to locate the particles in the tissue and determine their relationships to structures in the brain. The presence of ferrimagnetic material in human brain tissue also provides plausible theoretical mechanisms for the interaction of environmental magnetic fields with the human central nervous system &#8230;&#8221;.</p>
<p>Kobayashi, Kirschvink, and Nesson, in Nature v.374, p.123, 9 March 1995, say &#8220;&#8230; A simple calculation shows that the mechanical energy present in a single 0.1 um magnetite crystal exposed to a 60 Hz, 0.1 mT magnetic field is many times the thermal background noise. Such particles, if adsorbed on cell surfaces or ingested by the cells, could conceivably transfer this energy to contiguous cell structures such as mechanically-activated ion channels (which operate with a gating force close to the thermal noise limit), and thereby alter cytoplasmic ion concentrations &#8230;&#8221;.</p>
<p>Tony Smith</p>
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		<title>By: Yvette</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-81884</link>
		<dc:creator>Yvette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 01:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/09/26/magnetic-vision/#comment-81884</guid>
		<description>This &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; interesting!  My sister is currently doing grad school in evolutionary biology studying birds in Australia and I'll have to send it on to her. (Snail-mail though- she's in one of the very few parts of the world where it's quicker to write actual letters.) I actually discussed birds and magnetic fields with her while she was looking for a thesis topic... for awhile, she was trying to see if bird mating sites changed based on magnetic fields, but had to abandon that due to some technical limitations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This <i>is</i> interesting!  My sister is currently doing grad school in evolutionary biology studying birds in Australia and I&#8217;ll have to send it on to her. (Snail-mail though- she&#8217;s in one of the very few parts of the world where it&#8217;s quicker to write actual letters.) I actually discussed birds and magnetic fields with her while she was looking for a thesis topic&#8230; for awhile, she was trying to see if bird mating sites changed based on magnetic fields, but had to abandon that due to some technical limitations.</p>
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