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	<title>Comments on: When Physicists Go Bad?</title>
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	<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Carl Brannen</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-36563</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Brannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2007 10:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-36563</guid>
		<description>Clifford,

I am so glad that you have completed the "day in the life of" posts.  They were exhausting just to read.  I don't know where you find time to sleep.  Now that I'm retired, I stay up as late as I want (like Schwinger) and fall asleep with a notebook or text book next to my pillow.  

I've been looking again at Bohmian mechanics.  Bohm sort of goes the opposite direction of string theory.  He supported a classical interpretation of quantum theory rather than a quantum interpretation of (classical) gravity.

He wrote [tex]\psi = \sqrt{\rho} \exp(i S)[/tex] to convert [tex]\psi[/tex] to two real wave functions.  Then [tex]S[/tex] is the potential for a vector field, the field that defines the classical particle trajectories of Bohmian mechanics.  The calculations of Bohmian mechanics are identical to Schroedinger's equation, but the interpretation is different.

What I'm interested in is understanding how one implements a multiparticle bound state in this sort of theory, in the context of the primitive idempotent structure of a Clifford algebra.  I'm slowly making progress on this.

Anyway, I've stuck this off in an obscure corner of your blog so you can delete it after you read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford,</p>
<p>I am so glad that you have completed the &#8220;day in the life of&#8221; posts.  They were exhausting just to read.  I don&#8217;t know where you find time to sleep.  Now that I&#8217;m retired, I stay up as late as I want (like Schwinger) and fall asleep with a notebook or text book next to my pillow.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been looking again at Bohmian mechanics.  Bohm sort of goes the opposite direction of string theory.  He supported a classical interpretation of quantum theory rather than a quantum interpretation of (classical) gravity.</p>
<p>He wrote <img src='http://asymptotia.com/mimetex/pictures/09fd19afda8c2dd89c1b67147a271fba.gif' title='\psi = \sqrt{\rho} \exp(i S)' alt='\psi = \sqrt{\rho} \exp(i S)' align=absmiddle/> to convert <img src='http://asymptotia.com/mimetex/pictures/a11bd56a0ff5973a5604bb3fc9142b1d.gif' title='\psi' alt='\psi' align=absmiddle/> to two real wave functions.  Then <img src='http://asymptotia.com/mimetex/pictures/5dbc98dcc983a70728bd082d1a47546e.gif' title='S' alt='S' align=absmiddle/> is the potential for a vector field, the field that defines the classical particle trajectories of Bohmian mechanics.  The calculations of Bohmian mechanics are identical to Schroedinger&#8217;s equation, but the interpretation is different.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m interested in is understanding how one implements a multiparticle bound state in this sort of theory, in the context of the primitive idempotent structure of a Clifford algebra.  I&#8217;m slowly making progress on this.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;ve stuck this off in an obscure corner of your blog so you can delete it after you read it.</p>
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		<title>By: Warrior Two</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-36532</link>
		<dc:creator>Warrior Two</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Apr 2007 05:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-36532</guid>
		<description>Not that this is relevant, but how much of a genius could he be if he didn't realize he'd be so easily caught sending emails under an assumed name from the Caltech computer lab?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not that this is relevant, but how much of a genius could he be if he didn&#8217;t realize he&#8217;d be so easily caught sending emails under an assumed name from the Caltech computer lab?</p>
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		<title>By: Test Post &#171; metadatta</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-36468</link>
		<dc:creator>Test Post &#171; metadatta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Apr 2007 14:45:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-36468</guid>
		<description>[...] Having huge meetings and partying like rock stars isn&#8217;t everything, though. Among other things, the physics community (just like any other) has its share of scandals, politics, marketplace tactics, things of that sort. Sabine Hossenfelder, for example, has recently blogged about the problems of treating the scientific community as a marketplace, while Julianne Dalcanton&#8217;s post on physics&#8217; &#8220;cult of genius&#8221; definitely touched a nerve among readers. Meanwhile, Clifford Johnson has shared his views on recent events regarding an imprisoned theoretical physics grad student. (And of course, there&#8217;s the media aspect of things: John Conway recently picked up on his two previous posts on the search for the Higgs boson to blog about the unexpected media response.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Having huge meetings and partying like rock stars isn&#8217;t everything, though. Among other things, the physics community (just like any other) has its share of scandals, politics, marketplace tactics, things of that sort. Sabine Hossenfelder, for example, has recently blogged about the problems of treating the scientific community as a marketplace, while Julianne Dalcanton&#8217;s post on physics&#8217; &#8220;cult of genius&#8221; definitely touched a nerve among readers. Meanwhile, Clifford Johnson has shared his views on recent events regarding an imprisoned theoretical physics grad student. (And of course, there&#8217;s the media aspect of things: John Conway recently picked up on his two previous posts on the search for the Higgs boson to blog about the unexpected media response.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Philosophia Naturalis #8 &#171; {metadatta}</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-36092</link>
		<dc:creator>Philosophia Naturalis #8 &#171; {metadatta}</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 20:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-36092</guid>
		<description>[...] Having huge meetings and partying like rock stars isn&#8217;t everything, though. Among other things, the physics community (just like any other) has its share of scandals, politics, marketplace tactics, things of that sort. Sabine Hossenfelder, for example, has recently blogged about the problems of treating the scientific community as a marketplace, while Julianne Dalcanton&#8217;s post on physics&#8217; &#8220;cult of genius&#8221; definitely touched a nerve among readers. Meanwhile, Clifford Johnson has shared his views on recent events regarding an imprisoned theoretical physics grad student. (And of course, there&#8217;s the media aspect of things: John Conway recently picked up on his two previous posts on the search for the Higgs boson to blog about the unexpected media response.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Having huge meetings and partying like rock stars isn&#8217;t everything, though. Among other things, the physics community (just like any other) has its share of scandals, politics, marketplace tactics, things of that sort. Sabine Hossenfelder, for example, has recently blogged about the problems of treating the scientific community as a marketplace, while Julianne Dalcanton&#8217;s post on physics&#8217; &#8220;cult of genius&#8221; definitely touched a nerve among readers. Meanwhile, Clifford Johnson has shared his views on recent events regarding an imprisoned theoretical physics grad student. (And of course, there&#8217;s the media aspect of things: John Conway recently picked up on his two previous posts on the search for the Higgs boson to blog about the unexpected media response.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: joe</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-34361</link>
		<dc:creator>joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2007 05:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-34361</guid>
		<description>A commenters point made about prison injustice (evident in Cottrell's letter to LA Weekly) are true.

The following was publicly stated after a notorious S. Cal &lt;a href="http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/07/10/police.beating/index.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;incident&lt;/a&gt; (videotape shown nationally), where an &lt;a href="http://www.injusticebusters.com/05/Jackson_Donovan.shtml" rel="nofollow"&gt;unconscious black teen&lt;/a&gt; (who had a learning disability) was thrown headfirst on the hood of a police car:


don87654 07-16-2002, 3:27 PM
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Southern California cops are just plain crooked, period! I was once a
State of California Correctional Peace Officer at the California
Institute for Women at Frontera. We were taught in the Academy at Galt
how to formulate evidence to make ourselves look good and victims to
look bad. I refused to cater to this treatment and was fired by an
abusive Lieutenant that was in charge of Internal Affairs at the time.
Later because of my outspoken stances on this, charges were levied
against me involving vehicle tampering and simple assault and I was
convicted of this by what appeared to be paid police witnesses. My
attorney at the time, one of the best criminal lawyers in southern
California, told me to pack my bags and leave town, which I did. It took
him 8 long years to get my conviction erased from court records and to
get the warrant for my arrest dropped by the court so I was no longer
"wanted". It does not matter where they are at....these California cops
that completed the Academy in Los Angeles, or for the State, are just plain crooked--they are taught to be that way&lt;/blockquote&gt;


Basically, Cottrell is getting "ganged" by the authorities masquerading as the "Legal System".  It's ILLEGAL, their selective mistreatment.  Who's the bad guy?

This story reminds me of a guy who was getting harassed by 7 odd CHP officers, getting followed &#38; getting pulled over repeatedly.  The cops decided to dislike they guy, &#38; "ganged" him.  Illegal harassment.  Just like notorious Rodney King incident.

Cottrell's letter to LA Weekly:
"..My problems are almost entirely with the administration. The politics here, as with the government in general, are roughtly the same. Those with the least scruples rise the highest. Any time you manufacture and then â€˜solveâ€™ a security threat, you receive a promotion. . . ."

This is reminiscent of Feynman's letter to Wolfram, warning him of administrative-types:

"They will drive you WILD, and you will drive them WILD"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A commenters point made about prison injustice (evident in Cottrell&#8217;s letter to LA Weekly) are true.</p>
<p>The following was publicly stated after a notorious S. Cal <a href="http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/07/10/police.beating/index.html" rel="nofollow">incident</a> (videotape shown nationally), where an <a href="http://www.injusticebusters.com/05/Jackson_Donovan.shtml" rel="nofollow">unconscious black teen</a> (who had a learning disability) was thrown headfirst on the hood of a police car:</p>
<p>don87654 07-16-2002, 3:27 PM</p>
<blockquote><p>
Southern California cops are just plain crooked, period! I was once a<br />
State of California Correctional Peace Officer at the California<br />
Institute for Women at Frontera. We were taught in the Academy at Galt<br />
how to formulate evidence to make ourselves look good and victims to<br />
look bad. I refused to cater to this treatment and was fired by an<br />
abusive Lieutenant that was in charge of Internal Affairs at the time.<br />
Later because of my outspoken stances on this, charges were levied<br />
against me involving vehicle tampering and simple assault and I was<br />
convicted of this by what appeared to be paid police witnesses. My<br />
attorney at the time, one of the best criminal lawyers in southern<br />
California, told me to pack my bags and leave town, which I did. It took<br />
him 8 long years to get my conviction erased from court records and to<br />
get the warrant for my arrest dropped by the court so I was no longer<br />
&#8220;wanted&#8221;. It does not matter where they are at&#8230;.these California cops<br />
that completed the Academy in Los Angeles, or for the State, are just plain crooked&#8211;they are taught to be that way</p></blockquote>
<p>Basically, Cottrell is getting &#8220;ganged&#8221; by the authorities masquerading as the &#8220;Legal System&#8221;.  It&#8217;s ILLEGAL, their selective mistreatment.  Who&#8217;s the bad guy?</p>
<p>This story reminds me of a guy who was getting harassed by 7 odd CHP officers, getting followed &amp; getting pulled over repeatedly.  The cops decided to dislike they guy, &amp; &#8220;ganged&#8221; him.  Illegal harassment.  Just like notorious Rodney King incident.</p>
<p>Cottrell&#8217;s letter to LA Weekly:<br />
&#8220;..My problems are almost entirely with the administration. The politics here, as with the government in general, are roughtly the same. Those with the least scruples rise the highest. Any time you manufacture and then â€˜solveâ€™ a security threat, you receive a promotion. . . .&#8221;</p>
<p>This is reminiscent of Feynman&#8217;s letter to Wolfram, warning him of administrative-types:</p>
<p>&#8220;They will drive you WILD, and you will drive them WILD&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Bishop</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-33696</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 16:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-33696</guid>
		<description>The Death of American Genius

The other day I mentioned to some friends that we shouldn't be too surprised if a genius might appear some day that proves all the "normal" scientists wrong about the nature of Space-Time. I was wrong. We should be very surprised, indeed, if our brave new country produces even ONE more genius.
We just need to keep in mind what modern American society does to ALL of its odd-balls, especially it's geniuses. If they somehow escape the ministrations of the Psychiatric Priesthood Cult (approx. 50% of U.S. schoolboys are now force-drugged with Ridilin), they'll likely end up in prison.

Can anyone be found who was "terrorized" by his acts.

The Fourth Riech has arrived. It will be a done-deal with the October Surprise of 2008.

Good Night, America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Death of American Genius</p>
<p>The other day I mentioned to some friends that we shouldn&#8217;t be too surprised if a genius might appear some day that proves all the &#8220;normal&#8221; scientists wrong about the nature of Space-Time. I was wrong. We should be very surprised, indeed, if our brave new country produces even ONE more genius.<br />
We just need to keep in mind what modern American society does to ALL of its odd-balls, especially it&#8217;s geniuses. If they somehow escape the ministrations of the Psychiatric Priesthood Cult (approx. 50% of U.S. schoolboys are now force-drugged with Ridilin), they&#8217;ll likely end up in prison.</p>
<p>Can anyone be found who was &#8220;terrorized&#8221; by his acts.</p>
<p>The Fourth Riech has arrived. It will be a done-deal with the October Surprise of 2008.</p>
<p>Good Night, America.</p>
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		<title>By: IrrationalPoint</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-33140</link>
		<dc:creator>IrrationalPoint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 00:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-33140</guid>
		<description>You can start reading &lt;a href="http://hrw.org/doc/?t=global_prisons" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; about abuse in the prisonz.  Don't miss the HRW stuff on &lt;a href="http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;prison rape&lt;/a&gt;.  Here's a "Legal Affairs" article on &lt;a&gt;prison rape&lt;/a&gt;.  Here is a Salon article on &lt;a href="http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/05/19/maddy/index.html?pn=3" rel="nofollow"&gt;abuse of Muslim prisoners&lt;/a&gt;.  There are BBC articles on the subject &lt;a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/290567.stm" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/866934.stm" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, and &lt;a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/301375.stm" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. (Those last two are about UK prisons, but the first is about US prisons).

Also &lt;a href="http://www.spr.org/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Stop Prison Rape&lt;/a&gt; has some info.  &lt;a href="http://www.amnestyusa.org/women/womeninprison.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; is what Amnesty has to say on the issue.  And &lt;a href="http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0358201" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; is some info from Democracy Now.

You could probably find some more articles with a quick google.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Are you with them in their cells?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
No.  Are you?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Iâ€™m afraid you have been in one way or another brainwashed by the media.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
How is reading the mainstream newspapers being "brainwashed ?  Can you substantiate this?  This isn't a "new" issue -- there has actually been quite a lot of mainstream media coverage of this issues, especially in the British media.  

There was also an influential psychological study on institutionalised violence in the prison context.  I can't remember the researcher's name, but I can try to track it down if you're interested.

--IP</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can start reading <a href="http://hrw.org/doc/?t=global_prisons" rel="nofollow">here</a> about abuse in the prisonz.  Don&#8217;t miss the HRW stuff on <a href="http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/prison/report.html" rel="nofollow">prison rape</a>.  Here&#8217;s a &#8220;Legal Affairs&#8221; article on <a>prison rape</a>.  Here is a Salon article on <a href="http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/05/19/maddy/index.html?pn=3" rel="nofollow">abuse of Muslim prisoners</a>.  There are BBC articles on the subject <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/290567.stm" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/866934.stm" rel="nofollow">here</a>, and <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/301375.stm" rel="nofollow">here</a>. (Those last two are about UK prisons, but the first is about US prisons).</p>
<p>Also <a href="http://www.spr.org/" rel="nofollow">Stop Prison Rape</a> has some info.  <a href="http://www.amnestyusa.org/women/womeninprison.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is what Amnesty has to say on the issue.  And <a href="http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0358201" rel="nofollow">here</a> is some info from Democracy Now.</p>
<p>You could probably find some more articles with a quick google.</p>
<blockquote><p>Are you with them in their cells?</p></blockquote>
<p>No.  Are you?</p>
<blockquote><p>Iâ€™m afraid you have been in one way or another brainwashed by the media.</p></blockquote>
<p>How is reading the mainstream newspapers being &#8220;brainwashed ?  Can you substantiate this?  This isn&#8217;t a &#8220;new&#8221; issue &#8212; there has actually been quite a lot of mainstream media coverage of this issues, especially in the British media.  </p>
<p>There was also an influential psychological study on institutionalised violence in the prison context.  I can&#8217;t remember the researcher&#8217;s name, but I can try to track it down if you&#8217;re interested.</p>
<p>&#8211;IP</p>
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		<title>By: Eliot</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-33028</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-33028</guid>
		<description>IrrationalPoint: What's your basis that "Cottrell and other ordinary guys are being mistreated and absused by the 'justice' system"? Are you with them in their cells? I'm afraid you have been in one way or another brainwashed by the media.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IrrationalPoint: What&#8217;s your basis that &#8220;Cottrell and other ordinary guys are being mistreated and absused by the &#8216;justice&#8217; system&#8221;? Are you with them in their cells? I&#8217;m afraid you have been in one way or another brainwashed by the media.</p>
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		<title>By: IrrationalPoint</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32886</link>
		<dc:creator>IrrationalPoint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32886</guid>
		<description>Eliot:  nobody is suggesting that justice shouldn't be blind.  What I have said is that this is not justice.  Cottrell and other ordinary guys are being mistreated and abused by the "justice" system.  Abuse and inhumane treatment is unjust, whoever it happens to.

--IP</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eliot:  nobody is suggesting that justice shouldn&#8217;t be blind.  What I have said is that this is not justice.  Cottrell and other ordinary guys are being mistreated and abused by the &#8220;justice&#8221; system.  Abuse and inhumane treatment is unjust, whoever it happens to.</p>
<p>&#8211;IP</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32850</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 13:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32850</guid>
		<description>But he &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; just an ordinary guy.

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But he <em>is</em> just an ordinary guy.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: Eliot</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32787</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 07:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32787</guid>
		<description>What if he was just an ordinary guy. Would you go this far to sympathize with him? Isn't justice supposed to be blind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if he was just an ordinary guy. Would you go this far to sympathize with him? Isn&#8217;t justice supposed to be blind?</p>
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		<title>By: IrrationalPoint</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32562</link>
		<dc:creator>IrrationalPoint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32562</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;"Thank you. I think I explained reasonably clearly what makes this case rather different and interesting, however. And you are not right that terrorism is irrelevant. Did you read the piece I pointed to at all, or not?

And even if it was not new or unique (and I suggested nothing of the sort), is that reason to ignore it entirely?"&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I didn't say it wasn't interesting and I *certainly* don't think it should be ignored.  Rather, I think the fact that inhumane treatment of prisoners happens all the time makes the story more sad and more important, not less.

What I meant about the terrorist label was just that if the label had been "serious" he would almost certainly be in even worse conditions than he is now given the current administration and expanded powers for indefinite detention and torture.  The fact that he's in a federal prison means he's being processed as an ordinary criminal, rather than a "real" terrorist.

That said, it doesn't surprise me that prison system officials are afraid of intelligent prisoners who don't see their sentence as punishment, nor does it surprise me that he's being treated worse because of it.  (Yes, I read the article.)  Large-scale mistreatment of intellectuals has occured in the past precisely because people who work in the system are are afraid of intellegence. "Terrorist" is a convenient excuse for victimising such people, but that charge is not being taken as seriously as it could be by the legal system in this case (which is lucky for Cottrell).

&lt;blockquote&gt;"Sorry, but just because someone is a â€œgeniusâ€ or â€œautisticâ€ or whatever does not make it okay for him to break the laws and have no respect for other peopleâ€™s property"&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The point about autism is that some autistic people don't understand some social rules.  No one is claiming that is the case here, but I agree that medical evidence (in either direction) should have been allowed in court.

&lt;blockquote&gt;"To others, take it as a good life lesson not to wind up in jail."&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Or as a good life lesson that non-prisoners like us need to defend prisoners' human rights.  No one, whatever they have or have not done, should be subjected to the kind of inhumane treatment that prisons are full of.

Good post, Cliff.

--IP</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;Thank you. I think I explained reasonably clearly what makes this case rather different and interesting, however. And you are not right that terrorism is irrelevant. Did you read the piece I pointed to at all, or not?</p>
<p>And even if it was not new or unique (and I suggested nothing of the sort), is that reason to ignore it entirely?&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I didn&#8217;t say it wasn&#8217;t interesting and I *certainly* don&#8217;t think it should be ignored.  Rather, I think the fact that inhumane treatment of prisoners happens all the time makes the story more sad and more important, not less.</p>
<p>What I meant about the terrorist label was just that if the label had been &#8220;serious&#8221; he would almost certainly be in even worse conditions than he is now given the current administration and expanded powers for indefinite detention and torture.  The fact that he&#8217;s in a federal prison means he&#8217;s being processed as an ordinary criminal, rather than a &#8220;real&#8221; terrorist.</p>
<p>That said, it doesn&#8217;t surprise me that prison system officials are afraid of intelligent prisoners who don&#8217;t see their sentence as punishment, nor does it surprise me that he&#8217;s being treated worse because of it.  (Yes, I read the article.)  Large-scale mistreatment of intellectuals has occured in the past precisely because people who work in the system are are afraid of intellegence. &#8220;Terrorist&#8221; is a convenient excuse for victimising such people, but that charge is not being taken as seriously as it could be by the legal system in this case (which is lucky for Cottrell).</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Sorry, but just because someone is a â€œgeniusâ€ or â€œautisticâ€ or whatever does not make it okay for him to break the laws and have no respect for other peopleâ€™s property&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>The point about autism is that some autistic people don&#8217;t understand some social rules.  No one is claiming that is the case here, but I agree that medical evidence (in either direction) should have been allowed in court.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;To others, take it as a good life lesson not to wind up in jail.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Or as a good life lesson that non-prisoners like us need to defend prisoners&#8217; human rights.  No one, whatever they have or have not done, should be subjected to the kind of inhumane treatment that prisons are full of.</p>
<p>Good post, Cliff.</p>
<p>&#8211;IP</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32529</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 05:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32529</guid>
		<description>Taking up causes in this way has it's consequences.

At the same time enforced incarceration has opportunities with it that may have some reflection time. Hopefully the environment can be made conducive regardless of what is limited to him. Who can steal your thoughts? Who can steal what you practise to remember. Rehearse it, day in and day out.

Some of the new leaders have faced incarceration and within that time became new men. Some leaders who were changed to the way we see things now. 

Anwar Sadat. His biography is a interesting read. Mandela?

Not to say he might ever be like them, but given this time, what may be a more productive way to send the message?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taking up causes in this way has it&#8217;s consequences.</p>
<p>At the same time enforced incarceration has opportunities with it that may have some reflection time. Hopefully the environment can be made conducive regardless of what is limited to him. Who can steal your thoughts? Who can steal what you practise to remember. Rehearse it, day in and day out.</p>
<p>Some of the new leaders have faced incarceration and within that time became new men. Some leaders who were changed to the way we see things now. </p>
<p>Anwar Sadat. His biography is a interesting read. Mandela?</p>
<p>Not to say he might ever be like them, but given this time, what may be a more productive way to send the message?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Haelfix</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32488</link>
		<dc:creator>Haelfix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32488</guid>
		<description>The kid has my sympathy.  I don't doubt that he should be there, but here's to hoping his situation improves so he can do his time with the least amount of extra baggage possible.

To others, take it as a good life lesson not to wind up in jail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The kid has my sympathy.  I don&#8217;t doubt that he should be there, but here&#8217;s to hoping his situation improves so he can do his time with the least amount of extra baggage possible.</p>
<p>To others, take it as a good life lesson not to wind up in jail.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: When Worlds Collide, II - Asymptotia</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32486</link>
		<dc:creator>When Worlds Collide, II - Asymptotia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32486</guid>
		<description>[...] Yes, I know, but I was a fan of it since probably before he was eating solid food. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Yes, I know, but I was a fan of it since probably before he was eating solid food. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32359</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 05:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32359</guid>
		<description>I think one of the more depressing realizations I had when reading about this case originally was that crimes against property often carry harsher sentences than crimes against people. Firebombing an SUV can bring a more prolonged sentence than, say, robbery, assault, or rape. It's horrifying. There's a qualitative difference between damaging property (especially &lt;i&gt;corporate&lt;/i&gt; property -- it's not as if any individual's finances were destroyed by this crime; no lives were ruined, even if it did set some people back in some ways) and hurting &lt;i&gt;people&lt;/i&gt;, and it's not at all clear that our justice system sees the latter as the greater crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the more depressing realizations I had when reading about this case originally was that crimes against property often carry harsher sentences than crimes against people. Firebombing an SUV can bring a more prolonged sentence than, say, robbery, assault, or rape. It&#8217;s horrifying. There&#8217;s a qualitative difference between damaging property (especially <i>corporate</i> property &#8212; it&#8217;s not as if any individual&#8217;s finances were destroyed by this crime; no lives were ruined, even if it did set some people back in some ways) and hurting <i>people</i>, and it&#8217;s not at all clear that our justice system sees the latter as the greater crime.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anti-Andy</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32351</link>
		<dc:creator>Anti-Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 03:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32351</guid>
		<description>Haven't you watched Silence of the Lambs?  Evil genius is the most dangerous crminal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t you watched Silence of the Lambs?  Evil genius is the most dangerous crminal.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32347</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 03:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32347</guid>
		<description>"Coddling an inmate just because heâ€™s a physicist is just as bad as treating him worse for that same reason. "

Hi. I agree, but where did anyone say that he should be coddled because he is a physicist? You seem to be arguing against a simplistic point of view that was never expressed. 

Cheers,

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Coddling an inmate just because heâ€™s a physicist is just as bad as treating him worse for that same reason. &#8221;</p>
<p>Hi. I agree, but where did anyone say that he should be coddled because he is a physicist? You seem to be arguing against a simplistic point of view that was never expressed. </p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rae Ann</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32342</link>
		<dc:creator>Rae Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 01:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32342</guid>
		<description>"I suspect that the reason heâ€™s being punished more severely than some is more likely to be due to his lack of contrition than his connection with ecoterrorism, his being intelligent (LOL), or any Aspergerâ€™s syndrome..."

I think Carl is absolutely correct in his statements.  From an "outsider's" perspective I kind of view the possibly excessive sympathy for Cottrell as indefensible and maybe even laughable.  Sorry, but just because someone is a "genius" or "autistic" or whatever does not make it okay for him to break the laws and have no respect for other people's property and to refuse to participate in his punishment/rehabilitation.  Also, prisons have their own kind of social environment that is not very accepting of "high falutin" academians, especially those with huge egos.  Of course, I'm not justifying any inhuman treatment, but let's not forget that prison is primarily for *punishment* and protecting society from dangerous individuals.  Coddling an inmate just because he's a physicist is just as bad as treating him worse for that same reason.  I'm just saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I suspect that the reason heâ€™s being punished more severely than some is more likely to be due to his lack of contrition than his connection with ecoterrorism, his being intelligent (LOL), or any Aspergerâ€™s syndrome&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I think Carl is absolutely correct in his statements.  From an &#8220;outsider&#8217;s&#8221; perspective I kind of view the possibly excessive sympathy for Cottrell as indefensible and maybe even laughable.  Sorry, but just because someone is a &#8220;genius&#8221; or &#8220;autistic&#8221; or whatever does not make it okay for him to break the laws and have no respect for other people&#8217;s property and to refuse to participate in his punishment/rehabilitation.  Also, prisons have their own kind of social environment that is not very accepting of &#8220;high falutin&#8221; academians, especially those with huge egos.  Of course, I&#8217;m not justifying any inhuman treatment, but let&#8217;s not forget that prison is primarily for *punishment* and protecting society from dangerous individuals.  Coddling an inmate just because he&#8217;s a physicist is just as bad as treating him worse for that same reason.  I&#8217;m just saying.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32341</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 01:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32341</guid>
		<description>Perhaps. I just don't see how you and IP conclude that from the information available. Perhaps you have more information than I. Your interpretations may well be correct. I just don't agree.

Best,

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps. I just don&#8217;t see how you and IP conclude that from the information available. Perhaps you have more information than I. Your interpretations may well be correct. I just don&#8217;t agree.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Carl Brannen</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32339</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Brannen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 01:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32339</guid>
		<description>Clifford, after considering this overnight, I suspect that the reason he's being punished more severely than some is more likely to be due to his lack of contrition than his connection with ecoterrorism, his being intelligent (LOL), or any Asperger's syndrome.

The idea of US federal prison is to punish and rehabilitate.  What Cottrell is doing is short circuiting the rehabilitation process by refusing to acknowledge that what he did was wrong.  What's even worse, he doesn't kowtow to authorities.  There is no expectation that he will obey the law when released.  Under that circumstance, not only will they punish you more, but they also will turn you down for probation.

In prison, you are not necessarily allowed to pursue your hobbies.  If that includes physics, too bad.  Nice jobs are for prisoners who work within the system.  Part of that is by recognizing the error of their ways.

And in general, being a white collar criminal does not give you a "pass" from having to deal with the problems that blue collar criminals face when in jail.  I doubt that he's being locked up with snitches in order to make him beat them up.  Instead, they lock him up with a snitch so that he isn't beat up immediately by his roomie.

Given Cal. Tech's reputation for housing geniuses, reading the FBI report was highly amusing.  Why anyone would expect the next advance in particles to come out of people who spend their time putting bumper stickers on other peoples cars is beyond me.  At least one guy had enough smarts to ask if it was a crime.  Maybe they should have a mandatory class for freshmen, so they don't have to learn terms like "unindicted co-conspirator" from reading history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford, after considering this overnight, I suspect that the reason he&#8217;s being punished more severely than some is more likely to be due to his lack of contrition than his connection with ecoterrorism, his being intelligent (LOL), or any Asperger&#8217;s syndrome.</p>
<p>The idea of US federal prison is to punish and rehabilitate.  What Cottrell is doing is short circuiting the rehabilitation process by refusing to acknowledge that what he did was wrong.  What&#8217;s even worse, he doesn&#8217;t kowtow to authorities.  There is no expectation that he will obey the law when released.  Under that circumstance, not only will they punish you more, but they also will turn you down for probation.</p>
<p>In prison, you are not necessarily allowed to pursue your hobbies.  If that includes physics, too bad.  Nice jobs are for prisoners who work within the system.  Part of that is by recognizing the error of their ways.</p>
<p>And in general, being a white collar criminal does not give you a &#8220;pass&#8221; from having to deal with the problems that blue collar criminals face when in jail.  I doubt that he&#8217;s being locked up with snitches in order to make him beat them up.  Instead, they lock him up with a snitch so that he isn&#8217;t beat up immediately by his roomie.</p>
<p>Given Cal. Tech&#8217;s reputation for housing geniuses, reading the FBI report was highly amusing.  Why anyone would expect the next advance in particles to come out of people who spend their time putting bumper stickers on other peoples cars is beyond me.  At least one guy had enough smarts to ask if it was a crime.  Maybe they should have a mandatory class for freshmen, so they don&#8217;t have to learn terms like &#8220;unindicted co-conspirator&#8221; from reading history.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anti-Andy</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32337</link>
		<dc:creator>Anti-Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 00:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32337</guid>
		<description>Is Billy Cottrell like a Unabomber wannabe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is Billy Cottrell like a Unabomber wannabe?</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32318</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2007 21:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32318</guid>
		<description>IP:- Thank you. I think I explained reasonably clearly what makes this case rather different and interesting, however. And you are not right that terrorism is irrelevant. Did you read the piece I pointed to at all, or not? 

And even if it was not new or unique (and I suggested nothing of the sort), is that reason to ignore it entirely?

Fizzix and others:- Thanks. You may well be right about about his character, the trial, and circumstances surrounding that, but this matter is entirely about his treatment within the prison system, after the sentencing, which is inexcusable.


Thanks all,

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IP:- Thank you. I think I explained reasonably clearly what makes this case rather different and interesting, however. And you are not right that terrorism is irrelevant. Did you read the piece I pointed to at all, or not? </p>
<p>And even if it was not new or unique (and I suggested nothing of the sort), is that reason to ignore it entirely?</p>
<p>Fizzix and others:- Thanks. You may well be right about about his character, the trial, and circumstances surrounding that, but this matter is entirely about his treatment within the prison system, after the sentencing, which is inexcusable.</p>
<p>Thanks all,</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: IrrationalPoint</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32312</link>
		<dc:creator>IrrationalPoint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2007 20:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32312</guid>
		<description>This is a very sad story, but I don't think it really has anything to do with the "terrorist" label (or he would be spending his jail sentence in Guantanamo), nor is his treatment different from that of anyone else in the legal system.

The prison system is completely screwed up -- rehab is essentially non-existent, and prisoners live in an environment that is hugely more violent and abusive than the outside world, and full of drugs, rape, fights, and utter neglect.  When you enter the legal system, human rights get left behind.

&lt;blockquote&gt;In the treatment of prisoners cannot be really degrading punishment due to the human rights act which is backed up by the European Court of Human Rights.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In theory.  But in practice, the threatment of prisoners is degrading all the time, and their rights are violated all the time.  The UK is currently facing huge overcrowding problems in the prison system, and continuous complaints of mistreatment of prisoners.

Clifford, this story is indeed sad and speaks volumes about the state of the US legal system, but it's nothing new or unique.

--IP</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very sad story, but I don&#8217;t think it really has anything to do with the &#8220;terrorist&#8221; label (or he would be spending his jail sentence in Guantanamo), nor is his treatment different from that of anyone else in the legal system.</p>
<p>The prison system is completely screwed up &#8212; rehab is essentially non-existent, and prisoners live in an environment that is hugely more violent and abusive than the outside world, and full of drugs, rape, fights, and utter neglect.  When you enter the legal system, human rights get left behind.</p>
<blockquote><p>In the treatment of prisoners cannot be really degrading punishment due to the human rights act which is backed up by the European Court of Human Rights.</p></blockquote>
<p>In theory.  But in practice, the threatment of prisoners is degrading all the time, and their rights are violated all the time.  The UK is currently facing huge overcrowding problems in the prison system, and continuous complaints of mistreatment of prisoners.</p>
<p>Clifford, this story is indeed sad and speaks volumes about the state of the US legal system, but it&#8217;s nothing new or unique.</p>
<p>&#8211;IP</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: andy</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32293</link>
		<dc:creator>andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Mar 2007 18:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2007/03/07/when-physicists-go-bad/#comment-32293</guid>
		<description>Yvette said:
"Interestingly, burning an SUV emits several times more greenhouse gasses"
This is inaccurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yvette said:<br />
&#8220;Interestingly, burning an SUV emits several times more greenhouse gasses&#8221;<br />
This is inaccurate.</p>
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