<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: We&#8217;re Not Doomed</title>
	<atom:link href="http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4613</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 20:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4613</guid>
		<description>Snakes and ladders?  Leela: The Game of Self-Knowledge by Harish Johari 

The ideas here computationally written to a game board are not new?

&lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutes_and_Ladders" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Any version of Snakes and Ladders can be represented exactly as a Markov chain, since from any square the odds of moving to any other square are fixed and independent of any previous game history.

In the book Winning Ways the authors show how to treat Snakes and Ladders as a (loopy) impartial game in combinatorial game theory even though it is very far from a natural fit to this category. To this end they make a few "minor" rule changes such as allowing any player to move any counter any number of spaces, and declaring the winner to be the one who gets the last counter home. It is hard to deny that this version, which they call Adders-and-Ladders, involves more skill than does the original game.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Snakes and ladders?  Leela: The Game of Self-Knowledge by Harish Johari </p>
<p>The ideas here computationally written to a game board are not new?</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutes_and_Ladders" rel="nofollow"><br />
<blockquote>Any version of Snakes and Ladders can be represented exactly as a Markov chain, since from any square the odds of moving to any other square are fixed and independent of any previous game history.</p>
<p>In the book Winning Ways the authors show how to treat Snakes and Ladders as a (loopy) impartial game in combinatorial game theory even though it is very far from a natural fit to this category. To this end they make a few &#8220;minor&#8221; rule changes such as allowing any player to move any counter any number of spaces, and declaring the winner to be the one who gets the last counter home. It is hard to deny that this version, which they call Adders-and-Ladders, involves more skill than does the original game.</p></blockquote>
<p></a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JZ</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4608</link>
		<dc:creator>JZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:22:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4608</guid>
		<description>Getting a degree by playing games,  Wow, this is the best time ever to go to college.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Getting a degree by playing games,  Wow, this is the best time ever to go to college.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rob Knop</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4578</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Knop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4578</guid>
		<description>Clifford -- you *should* do a collaborative project.  After all "interdisciplinary" is one of the favorite words of University administrators, especially if you can put "synergy" near it.

But, yes, why not video games as a storytelling medium?  I *have* played a fair number of videogames.  There are a few videogames with fairly compelling stories.  For instance, &lt;i&gt;Knights of the Old Republic&lt;/i&gt; was a better prequel to &lt;i&gt;Star Wars&lt;/i&gt; than any of the episodes I-III.  Now, granted, it took you some 30-40 hours of play to get through the story, which took (me, at least) months to go from beginning to end.  But if you took out a lot of that pesky "gameplay," the story would have been a movie or two (depending on how many of the individual characters' stories you wanted to really explore).  Was the story something that wouldn't have worked nearly as well in a movie as it did in a videogame where you're pulled into the roll of the main character?  I dunno.  I can see an argument both ways, but I'm a physicist, not a video game academic.

Many video games have very perfunctory stories, needed to get you from one fun action sequence to the next.  Nothing deep there, really, so far as literature is concerned.  Of course, there's no story to Tetris, but it's one of those videogams that has been fun for decades, and has outlasted the best-loved megaproductions of any era.  So clearly story isn't all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clifford &#8212; you *should* do a collaborative project.  After all &#8220;interdisciplinary&#8221; is one of the favorite words of University administrators, especially if you can put &#8220;synergy&#8221; near it.</p>
<p>But, yes, why not video games as a storytelling medium?  I *have* played a fair number of videogames.  There are a few videogames with fairly compelling stories.  For instance, <i>Knights of the Old Republic</i> was a better prequel to <i>Star Wars</i> than any of the episodes I-III.  Now, granted, it took you some 30-40 hours of play to get through the story, which took (me, at least) months to go from beginning to end.  But if you took out a lot of that pesky &#8220;gameplay,&#8221; the story would have been a movie or two (depending on how many of the individual characters&#8217; stories you wanted to really explore).  Was the story something that wouldn&#8217;t have worked nearly as well in a movie as it did in a videogame where you&#8217;re pulled into the roll of the main character?  I dunno.  I can see an argument both ways, but I&#8217;m a physicist, not a video game academic.</p>
<p>Many video games have very perfunctory stories, needed to get you from one fun action sequence to the next.  Nothing deep there, really, so far as literature is concerned.  Of course, there&#8217;s no story to Tetris, but it&#8217;s one of those videogams that has been fun for decades, and has outlasted the best-loved megaproductions of any era.  So clearly story isn&#8217;t all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TheGraduate</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4546</link>
		<dc:creator>TheGraduate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4546</guid>
		<description>There are a lot of real challenges in games like optimizing the algorithms to get the most out of the machines, developing the AI and coming up with systems for ranking players online.

Some games give you the option of playing as different forms of player ... like playing France, Germay, Britian or something in a war game ... where you might get different types of troops and equipment.

Which, when you consider massive online play, inevitable leads to issues of how to make the game 'fair' and 'balanced'.  So many companies then go through this iterative process of analysing the behavior in the game community and 'balancing' the game.  This process is not as simple nor as permanent as it would seem as the relative strengths change as the online community develops new strategies.

There are also often extensive tutorials and online communities of people who accumulate knowledge and collect recordings of games for analysis and improvement of strategies.  People even collect statistics on the behavior of the game world and create data sets to support the development of strategies by their colleagues.

There is a lot of intelligence both on the player side and the designer side of the equation.

There is a level professionalism and dedication that approaches chess players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a lot of real challenges in games like optimizing the algorithms to get the most out of the machines, developing the AI and coming up with systems for ranking players online.</p>
<p>Some games give you the option of playing as different forms of player &#8230; like playing France, Germay, Britian or something in a war game &#8230; where you might get different types of troops and equipment.</p>
<p>Which, when you consider massive online play, inevitable leads to issues of how to make the game &#8216;fair&#8217; and &#8216;balanced&#8217;.  So many companies then go through this iterative process of analysing the behavior in the game community and &#8216;balancing&#8217; the game.  This process is not as simple nor as permanent as it would seem as the relative strengths change as the online community develops new strategies.</p>
<p>There are also often extensive tutorials and online communities of people who accumulate knowledge and collect recordings of games for analysis and improvement of strategies.  People even collect statistics on the behavior of the game world and create data sets to support the development of strategies by their colleagues.</p>
<p>There is a lot of intelligence both on the player side and the designer side of the equation.</p>
<p>There is a level professionalism and dedication that approaches chess players.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pyracantha</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4545</link>
		<dc:creator>Pyracantha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 01:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4545</guid>
		<description>I would love to see and play a game where I get to be a physicist with some new ideas and how they are tested with scientific method. And for more complexity the game could include scientific politics as well. The winner, of course, gets a Nobel Prize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would love to see and play a game where I get to be a physicist with some new ideas and how they are tested with scientific method. And for more complexity the game could include scientific politics as well. The winner, of course, gets a Nobel Prize.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4544</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4544</guid>
		<description>That was my point... I was making fun of myself pontificating with a distinct lack of hands-on experience. ;-) But hopefully making up for it by realizing the potential of the medium and hoping that it be fulfilled....

I don't dare look at the link. I might get sucked in!


-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was my point&#8230; I was making fun of myself pontificating with a distinct lack of hands-on experience. <img src='http://asymptotia.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> But hopefully making up for it by realizing the potential of the medium and hoping that it be fulfilled&#8230;.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t dare look at the link. I might get sucked in!</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dimitri Terryn</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4543</link>
		<dc:creator>Dimitri Terryn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4543</guid>
		<description>"I speak as someone who played a game or two of tetris in a bar in Trieste in 1991, and decided that I enjoyed it way too much and so never played a video game again"

Lol, it might interest you to know that video games have advanced quite a lot since then...
This is a nice example :

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=14828&#38;type=mov&#38;pl=game</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I speak as someone who played a game or two of tetris in a bar in Trieste in 1991, and decided that I enjoyed it way too much and so never played a video game again&#8221;</p>
<p>Lol, it might interest you to know that video games have advanced quite a lot since then&#8230;<br />
This is a nice example :</p>
<p><a href="http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=14828&amp;type=mov&amp;pl=game" rel="nofollow">http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=14828&amp;type=mov&amp;pl=game</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4535</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 20:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4535</guid>
		<description>Oh. I guess that gets me off the hook. I'm not really one for photographing celebrities for the sake of it. Besides, isn't there one on her website? Stay tuned for an upcoming post on a colloquium she did here at USC. That way, you get something more important -the &lt;em&gt; science&lt;/em&gt; that she's been up to! It should be up later this week, or early next week depending upon just how much time I can cheat back. The Tardis has been under a lot of stress recently.


-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh. I guess that gets me off the hook. I&#8217;m not really one for photographing celebrities for the sake of it. Besides, isn&#8217;t there one on her website? Stay tuned for an upcoming post on a colloquium she did here at USC. That way, you get something more important -the <em> science</em> that she&#8217;s been up to! It should be up later this week, or early next week depending upon just how much time I can cheat back. The Tardis has been under a lot of stress recently.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Amara</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4530</link>
		<dc:creator>Amara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 19:22:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4530</guid>
		<description>I'm sorry, spyder, I will not be able to attend. A once-per-year proposal deadline is tomorrow and some unplanned (suggested last night by my more-experienced colleague) revisions to my document need my time today. I'll have to watch the Giants of Cyberspace broadcast from Cory Doctorow's recording (he said one would be available). I know, I know. I'm missing a great show. :-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, spyder, I will not be able to attend. A once-per-year proposal deadline is tomorrow and some unplanned (suggested last night by my more-experienced colleague) revisions to my document need my time today. I&#8217;ll have to watch the Giants of Cyberspace broadcast from Cory Doctorow&#8217;s recording (he said one would be available). I know, I know. I&#8217;m missing a great show. <img src='http://asymptotia.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: spyder</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4525</link>
		<dc:creator>spyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4525</guid>
		<description>By the way, Clifford, if you get the chance to visit with Amara today (she is planning on attending the Giants of Cyberspace symposia at USC), please have a picture taken with her for all of us to experience.  It would be much appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, Clifford, if you get the chance to visit with Amara today (she is planning on attending the Giants of Cyberspace symposia at USC), please have a picture taken with her for all of us to experience.  It would be much appreciated.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: spyder</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4523</link>
		<dc:creator>spyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 18:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4523</guid>
		<description>In the September 2006 issue of Harper's there was a forum section that discussed the very sorts of potential developments that such a degree program could enhance and produce.  Titled: Grand Theft Education: Literacy in the age of video games, the forum featured: Jane Avrich, Steven Johnson, Raph Koster, Thomas de Zengotita.  Steven and Raph are video gaming pioneers and developers who feel strongly that there is great potential for educational programming through video gaming.  One hopes that these are efforts that are in the pipeline sooner rather than later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the September 2006 issue of Harper&#8217;s there was a forum section that discussed the very sorts of potential developments that such a degree program could enhance and produce.  Titled: Grand Theft Education: Literacy in the age of video games, the forum featured: Jane Avrich, Steven Johnson, Raph Koster, Thomas de Zengotita.  Steven and Raph are video gaming pioneers and developers who feel strongly that there is great potential for educational programming through video gaming.  One hopes that these are efforts that are in the pipeline sooner rather than later.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Amara</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4520</link>
		<dc:creator>Amara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4520</guid>
		<description>I think that many people will rethink video games when Spore is released. 
--&#62;&lt;a href="http://www.kottke.org/06/11/will-wrights-bibliography" rel="nofollow"&gt;Will Wright&lt;/a&gt; demonstrating &lt;a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8372603330420559198" rel="nofollow"&gt;Spore&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that many people will rethink video games when Spore is released.<br />
&#8211;&gt;<a href="http://www.kottke.org/06/11/will-wrights-bibliography" rel="nofollow">Will Wright</a> demonstrating <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8372603330420559198" rel="nofollow">Spore</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TheGraduate</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4517</link>
		<dc:creator>TheGraduate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 17:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4517</guid>
		<description>Yes, I totally agree.  That's why I think video game belong with films and books as something that a university might want to get involved with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I totally agree.  That&#8217;s why I think video game belong with films and books as something that a university might want to get involved with.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4515</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4515</guid>
		<description>All true.... but be aware that you could change "video game" for "film", or "book" in everything you said above and it would still be true.


-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All true&#8230;. but be aware that you could change &#8220;video game&#8221; for &#8220;film&#8221;, or &#8220;book&#8221; in everything you said above and it would still be true.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TheGraduate</title>
		<link>http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4514</link>
		<dc:creator>TheGraduate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://asymptotia.com/2006/11/14/were-not-doomed/#comment-4514</guid>
		<description>Video games make a lot of money and they are used to train soldiers often enough.  I think it fits quite nicely into the academic-military-industrial complex.  I hope that doesn't sound too cynical.

I guess I could rephrase: it requires a lot of intelligence to make a video game and its a legitimate contributor to the US economy and the pleasures of childhood; and even has real applications in the real world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Video games make a lot of money and they are used to train soldiers often enough.  I think it fits quite nicely into the academic-military-industrial complex.  I hope that doesn&#8217;t sound too cynical.</p>
<p>I guess I could rephrase: it requires a lot of intelligence to make a video game and its a legitimate contributor to the US economy and the pleasures of childhood; and even has real applications in the real world.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
