Comments on: A Glimmer of Hope for Pluto? http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/ Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:37:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Charles Saunders http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-22160 Charles Saunders Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:51:56 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-22160 Pluto is supposedly a dwarf yet it has three moons orbiting it? I think that constitutes "clearing the neighborhood". I believe Pluto is a binary planet with Charon to be honest. I wonder what would happen if an earth sized one was found in the Kuniper Belt? Pluto is supposedly a dwarf yet it has three moons orbiting it? I think that constitutes “clearing the neighborhood”. I believe Pluto is a binary planet with Charon to be honest. I wonder what would happen if an earth sized one was found in the Kuniper Belt?

]]> By: James Scott Heine http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-695 James Scott Heine Thu, 31 Aug 2006 01:54:48 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-695 I am an amateur astronomer and I have seen all the planets except Pluto (and I have also seen Ceres). Why can't we acknowledge that Pluto, "Xena", and all round objects (that are not stars) that orbit the sun are planets?! Out of thousands of astronomers only 414 voted on this issue! The third condition (about having a "clear orbit zone") is a crock. It would disqualify other planets from planetary status. This "dwarf planet" business is a bunch of crap. Pluto is a planet, and there are other small planets in our solar system - some we haven't found yet. Pluto and "Xena" and other bodies are planets, no matter what an "elite" group of people say. I am an amateur astronomer and I have seen all the planets except Pluto (and I have also seen Ceres). Why can’t we acknowledge that Pluto, “Xena”, and all round objects (that are not stars) that orbit the sun are planets?! Out of thousands of astronomers only 414 voted on this issue! The third condition (about having a “clear orbit zone”) is a crock. It would disqualify other planets from planetary status. This “dwarf planet” business is a bunch of crap. Pluto is a planet, and there are other small planets in our solar system - some we haven’t found yet. Pluto and “Xena” and other bodies are planets, no matter what an “elite” group of people say.

]]> By: Keeping the Flame Alive - Asymptotia http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-684 Keeping the Flame Alive - Asymptotia Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:22:14 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-684 [...] You’ll recall the news I reported about a number of members of the astronomy and planetary science community asking people to sign a petition to get the IAU to reconsider their Prague decision to accept the planetary definition that resulted in the “Pluto demotion”. See link here, along with the precise language of their objection. (HST image of Pluto and Charon on right. Click for larger.) The short statement at the header of the petition itself is: We, as planetary scientists and astronomers, do not agree with the IAU’s definition of a planet, nor will we use it. A better definition is needed. [...] [...] You’ll recall the news I reported about a number of members of the astronomy and planetary science community asking people to sign a petition to get the IAU to reconsider their Prague decision to accept the planetary definition that resulted in the “Pluto demotion”. See link here, along with the precise language of their objection. (HST image of Pluto and Charon on right. Click for larger.) The short statement at the header of the petition itself is: We, as planetary scientists and astronomers, do not agree with the IAU’s definition of a planet, nor will we use it. A better definition is needed. [...]

]]> By: Richard J. Pugel http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-667 Richard J. Pugel Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:12:37 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-667 I sarted becoming interested in the sky when I was five years old when my maternal grandfather bought me a star map and introduced the stars to me. I have avidly kept abreast of astronomical knowledge since I was twelve. It is most unfortunate that educated scientists have demonstrated such emotionalism about defining what a planet is. Science is supposed to be based on quantitative measurements, not on emotional I-want-it-to-be this way definitions. The initial proposed definition of "planet" was better than the final one. However, I think that it too was faulty. To call Charon a planet, and say that our moon is not, is illogical. I think that the definition should include all bodies with a mass that has caused it to form a sphere, from the lower mass to the mass that is just before a brown dwarf. So, it was, rightly said that Pluto and Charon are planets. However, I believe where the preliminary definition fell short, was that there should be the distinction, primary and secondary planets. For example, we can say that the Earth is the primary planet for its orbit, and the Moon is a secondary planet. Jupiter is the primary planet for its orbit, with secondary planets and asteroid like bodies orbiting around it. To have said that Pluto is a primary planet for its orbit, and Charon a secondary plamet may have been more palatable for many of the scientists who were upset with the idea that two planets could be in the same orbit. I do hope that the IAU comes to its senses and redefines what a planet is without the emotionalism. At any rate, the future will force the IAU to redefine the term "planet" because the day will come when we will know about millions of planets of all sizes in the galaxy. It will then be understood that there are dwarf planets, earth sized planets, giant planets, supergiant planets. Indeed, there will have to be a scale of planets just as there is for stars. I sarted becoming interested in the sky when I was five years old when my maternal grandfather bought me a star map and introduced the stars to me. I have avidly kept abreast of astronomical knowledge since I was twelve.

It is most unfortunate that educated scientists have demonstrated such emotionalism about defining what a planet is. Science is supposed to be based on quantitative measurements, not on emotional I-want-it-to-be this way definitions.

The initial proposed definition of “planet” was better than the final one. However, I think that it too was faulty. To call Charon a planet, and say that our moon is not, is illogical. I think that the definition should include all bodies with a mass that has caused it to form a sphere, from the lower mass to the mass that is just before a brown dwarf. So, it was, rightly said that Pluto and Charon are planets. However, I believe where the preliminary definition fell short, was that there should be the distinction, primary and secondary planets. For example, we can say that the Earth is the primary planet for its orbit, and the Moon is a secondary planet. Jupiter is the primary planet for its orbit, with secondary planets and asteroid like bodies orbiting around it. To have said that Pluto is a primary planet for its orbit, and Charon a secondary plamet may have been more palatable for many of the scientists who were upset with the idea that two planets could be in the same orbit.

I do hope that the IAU comes to its senses and redefines what a planet is without the emotionalism. At any rate, the future will force the IAU to redefine the term “planet” because the day will come when we will know about millions of planets of all sizes in the galaxy.

It will then be understood that there are dwarf planets, earth sized planets, giant planets, supergiant planets. Indeed, there will have to be a scale of planets just as there is for stars.

]]> By: Amara http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-658 Amara Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:35:23 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-658 It's more than a handful of people supporting the original IAU 12 planet proposal, the Division of Planetary Sciencies committee <a href="http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=20621" rel="nofollow"> supported it</a> (the DPS body consisting of a few thousand members I think, and we just elected our representative DPS committee). It would have been better for all of the DPS and AAS members to weigh in though. I don't see how the new proposal leads to any deeper understanding of solar system bodies than the previous proposal; the outer solar system's dynamical _and_ intrinsic properties are still not known well. Neptune didn't clear Pluto in it's orbit but can anyone can say if UB313 cleared bodies in _its_ orbit? (Does anyone even know at what location UB313 and Pluto originally formed?) The new proposal is not without flaws. I wonder if a compromise encompassing both intrinsic and dynamical properties can be made. It’s more than a handful of people supporting the original IAU 12 planet proposal, the Division of Planetary Sciencies committee supported it (the DPS body consisting of a few thousand members I think, and we just elected our representative DPS committee). It would have been better for all of the DPS and AAS members to weigh in though.

I don’t see how the new proposal leads to any deeper understanding of solar system bodies than the previous proposal; the outer solar system’s dynamical _and_ intrinsic properties are still not known well. Neptune didn’t clear Pluto in it’s orbit but can anyone can say if UB313 cleared bodies in _its_ orbit? (Does anyone even know at what location UB313 and Pluto originally formed?) The new proposal is not without flaws. I wonder if a compromise encompassing both intrinsic and dynamical properties can be made.

]]> By: Demote Pluto http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-647 Demote Pluto Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:50:46 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-647 The problem is not so much in the concept of "clearing the neighborhood" as it is with the hasty drafting of the language explaining the concept. The IAU definition of a planet refers to a body's gravitational potential to dominate its orbital environs. While Neptune may not have "cleared" Pluto from its orbit, Pluto has been forced into a 3:2 orbital resonance with Neptune, along with other Kuiper Belt Objects like it, called "Plutinos" -- of which Pluto is the largest. This is counted as a "clearing" in the language defined by the IAU. Demoting Pluto was the right thing to do, and is the first step towards a deeper understanding and simpler classification of solar system bodies. This way, we won't need to update our list of planets everytime a new large Kuiper Belt Object is found; we simply treat Pluto as first-discovered of several large KBOs. It's still in the textbooks as a minor planet, but not counted among more major solar system bodies which have far greater gravitational influence over their orbital neighborhoods. http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/eightplanets/ The problem is not so much in the concept of “clearing the neighborhood” as it is with the hasty drafting of the language explaining the concept. The IAU definition of a planet refers to a body’s gravitational potential to dominate its orbital environs. While Neptune may not have “cleared” Pluto from its orbit, Pluto has been forced into a 3:2 orbital resonance with Neptune, along with other Kuiper Belt Objects like it, called “Plutinos” — of which Pluto is the largest. This is counted as a “clearing” in the language defined by the IAU.

Demoting Pluto was the right thing to do, and is the first step towards a deeper understanding and simpler classification of solar system bodies. This way, we won’t need to update our list of planets everytime a new large Kuiper Belt Object is found; we simply treat Pluto as first-discovered of several large KBOs. It’s still in the textbooks as a minor planet, but not counted among more major solar system bodies which have far greater gravitational influence over their orbital neighborhoods.

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/eightplanets/

]]> By: Ryan Somma http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-643 Ryan Somma Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:58:16 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-643 The third criteria is vague and unscientific in my mind: Pluto is a Planet: http://www.ideonexus.com/default.asp?article=theories-plutoisaplanet01 The third criteria is vague and unscientific in my mind:

Pluto is a Planet:
http://www.ideonexus.com/default.asp?article=theories-plutoisaplanet01

]]> By: Ryan Somma http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-642 Ryan Somma Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:57:44 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-642 The third criteria is vague and unscientific in my mind: <a href="http://www.ideonexus.com/default.asp?article=theories-plutoisaplanet01" rel="nofollow">Pluto is a Planet</a> The third criteria is vague and unscientific in my mind:

Pluto is a Planet

]]> By: James http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-641 James Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:57:26 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-641 Click my name It's not a petition so much as a banner movement... The louder we are, the more noise is made, the more chance I hope the change will be reversed! Click my name

It’s not a petition so much as a banner movement…

The louder we are, the more noise is made, the more chance I hope the change will be reversed!

]]> By: James http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-640 James Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:57:11 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-640 Check out http://www.adrianspeyer.com/pluto-is-a-planet-in-my-heart.html It's not a petition so much as a banner movement... The louder we are, the more noise is made, the more chance I hope the change will be reversed! Check out http://www.adrianspeyer.com/pluto-is-a-planet-in-my-heart.html

It’s not a petition so much as a banner movement…

The louder we are, the more noise is made, the more chance I hope the change will be reversed!

]]> By: Brad http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-635 Brad Tue, 29 Aug 2006 01:02:44 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-635 I'll bet some of the people on that petition will also claim that a planet has to be something orbiting a star - which is itself a dynamical criterion! Does anyone know of a petition that supports the IAU decision? For all the whining about the "small fraction", my informal sampling of the local astronomers suggests that the majority agrees with the notion that Pluto is not a planet, although many recognise that the accepted definition has some pretty substantial holes in it. I’ll bet some of the people on that petition will also claim that a planet has to be
something orbiting a star - which is itself a dynamical criterion!

Does anyone know of a petition that supports the IAU decision? For all the whining
about the “small fraction”, my informal sampling of the local astronomers suggests
that the majority agrees with the notion that Pluto is not a planet, although many
recognise that the accepted definition has some pretty substantial holes in it.

]]> By: Stephen Uitti http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-631 Stephen Uitti Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:44:58 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-631 Ceres was a planet for fifty years. It should also be a planet. My Very Enegetic Mother Can Just Serve Us Nine Pizzas (with Cheese and eXtras). Ceres was a planet for fifty years. It should also be a planet.
My Very Enegetic Mother Can Just Serve Us Nine Pizzas (with Cheese and eXtras).

]]> By: From Dwarf Planets to Hobbit Galaxies - Asymptotia http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-627 From Dwarf Planets to Hobbit Galaxies - Asymptotia Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:19:22 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-627 [...] Sure this stuff is fun, but what’s the larger point, you might ask? Well, just as the discussion about Pluto’s status as a planet (see also here) touches on hugely important issues such as formation and evolutions of planetary systems, so the satellite galaxy issue touches on similar questions for galaxies (although it I were them I’d not take too seriously being called galaxies, in case the name is snatched away from them one day). [...] [...] Sure this stuff is fun, but what’s the larger point, you might ask? Well, just as the discussion about Pluto’s status as a planet (see also here) touches on hugely important issues such as formation and evolutions of planetary systems, so the satellite galaxy issue touches on similar questions for galaxies (although it I were them I’d not take too seriously being called galaxies, in case the name is snatched away from them one day). [...]

]]> By: P. Edward Murray http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-596 P. Edward Murray Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:58:47 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-596 Glenn, Many thanks for posting these, but I will wait to see what, if anything, the folks at Night Sky Network want to do. Ed Murray Glenn,

Many thanks for posting these, but I will wait to see what,
if anything, the folks at Night Sky Network want to do.

Ed Murray

]]> By: Elliot http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-589 Elliot Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:48:47 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-589 Maybe if Pluto grew a bit, it would have a stronger case. Maybe if Pluto grew a bit, it would have a stronger case.

]]> By: Neil Davies http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-587 Neil Davies Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:28:34 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-587 I have also a petition of my mine that i would like to add to the cause http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Stpp/petition.html I have also a petition of my mine that i would like to add to the cause

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/Stpp/petition.html

]]> By: Neil Davies http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-586 Neil Davies Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:27:36 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-586 Its been a planet for many years, so i think its unfair to change it. Its a planet not a dwarf. Its sets an unwelcome precedent. Its been a planet for many years, so i think its unfair to change it. Its a planet not a dwarf. Its sets an unwelcome precedent.

]]> By: Clifford http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-581 Clifford Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:11:13 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-581 Amara:- Thats exactly my thinking. Both sides actually make a lot of sense. I think Ill watch from the sidelines on this one as I don't have a "side", and will keep trying to bring information here as I learn it. cheers, -cvj Amara:- Thats exactly my thinking. Both sides actually make a lot of sense. I think Ill watch from the sidelines on this one as I don’t have a “side”, and will keep trying to bring information here as I learn it.

cheers,

-cvj

]]> By: Amara http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-580 Amara Sat, 26 Aug 2006 08:07:04 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-580 On my own side, now I don't know what 'camp' to be in, because both arguments: 1) planet as defined from its dynamics or 2) planet as defined from its intrinsic properties, have good merits. I'm doing my best to get the European/nonAmerican planetary scientists informed whenever I receive info from the American planetary science community (I have a foot in both worlds). A proper vote by the whole community should be made, I think. On my own side, now I don’t know what ‘camp’ to be in, because both arguments: 1) planet as defined from its dynamics or 2) planet as defined from its intrinsic properties, have good merits. I’m doing my best to get the European/nonAmerican planetary scientists informed whenever I receive info from the American planetary science community (I have a foot in both worlds). A proper vote by the whole community should be made, I think.

]]> By: Glenn Barlow http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-579 Glenn Barlow Sat, 26 Aug 2006 04:49:11 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-579 There are at least tewo petitions in existance already that people can sign; http://pleasesavepluto.org/ and http://www.petitiononline.com/mvemjsun/ Feel free to sign either or both to support the cause. There are at least tewo petitions in existance already that people can sign;

http://pleasesavepluto.org/

and

http://www.petitiononline.com/mvemjsun/

Feel free to sign either or both to support the cause.

]]> By: P. Edward Murray http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-577 P. Edward Murray Sat, 26 Aug 2006 03:35:37 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-577 Clifford, I am a member of the JPL/NASA Night Sky Network which is a community of amateur astronomical clubs that do a lot of educational outreach. I've just sent and e-mail to Dawn Bair the Night Sky Network Coordinator asking if we could start a petition supporting Dr. Alan Stern's quest to ask the IAU to re-name Pluto as a Planet. I have also contacted Ted A. Nichols of the Astronomical Society of Harrisburg...the young man who started the quest to send New Horizons to Pluto. It is my hope that we could start with individual members of the Night Sky Network and extend it to other amateurs and then to schools and students across the United States. If you are interested in helping please contact Dawn Bair at nightskyinfo@astrosociety.org. Thanks, Sincerely, P. Edward Murray Past President, Bucks-Mont. Astronomical Assoc., Inc. Clifford,

I am a member of the JPL/NASA Night Sky Network which is a community of amateur astronomical clubs that do a lot of
educational outreach.

I’ve just sent and e-mail to Dawn Bair the Night Sky Network Coordinator asking if we could start a petition supporting Dr. Alan Stern’s quest to ask the IAU to re-name Pluto as a Planet. I have also contacted Ted A. Nichols of the Astronomical Society of Harrisburg…the young man who started the quest to send New Horizons to Pluto.

It is my hope that we could start with individual members of the Night Sky Network and extend it to other amateurs and then to schools and students across the United States.

If you are interested in helping please contact Dawn Bair at nightskyinfo@astrosociety.org.

Thanks,

Sincerely,

P. Edward Murray
Past President,
Bucks-Mont. Astronomical Assoc., Inc.

]]> By: RisingSunofNihon http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-572 RisingSunofNihon Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:43:43 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-572 Hmm, very interesting stuff here. Thanks for putting the planetary debate into terms that a non-scientific person like myself can understand. I do think this whole issue will come down to another vote among IAU members (it just doesn't seem right that a few hundred people can decde Pluto's fate for all of us) and it might play out differently next time. Hmm, very interesting stuff here. Thanks for putting the planetary debate into terms that a non-scientific person like myself can understand. I do think this whole issue will come down to another vote among IAU members (it just doesn’t seem right that a few hundred people can decde Pluto’s fate for all of us) and it might play out differently next time.

]]> By: The Lighter Side of Pluto… - Asymptotia http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-571 The Lighter Side of Pluto… - Asymptotia Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:35:53 +0000 http://asymptotia.com/2006/08/25/a-glimmer-of-hope-for-pluto/#comment-571 [...] « A Glimmer of Hope for Pluto? [...] [...] « A Glimmer of Hope for Pluto? [...]

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